As France's new law banning face veils went into effect on April 11th, more than twenty veiled women and dozens of others have been arrested in protests at Notre Dame Cathedral against the new ban. Belgium was the first country to pass a similar law last year, but Belgium's ban has gone largely unenforced and unchallenged. Several other European countries are also considering passing laws which ban face veils as well.
In this video, Hebah Ahmed and Mona Eltahawy, both Muslim women, debate France's decision to ban face veils (niqab) in public.
People who go to Saudi Arabia to work or visit have to follow KSA's laws. For example, practising another religion other than Islam is prohibited and proselytizing in KSA is punishable by death. Also, if a man and a woman who are not married to each other are caught alone together, they will likely be sentenced to jailtime and lashings. These are examples of existing laws in KSA, and even though most other countries do not have laws like these, they must be followed or suffer the consequences.
Arab News published this article about how there is mixed reaction among Saudi women about the new French law. It quoted Sarah Kazim, a 30-year-old housewife, expressing her feeling that people everywhere should respect the laws of each individual country. “If women are made to dress a different way and wear their hijab in Saudi Arabia and we respect it, then we should respect the laws of the French constitution. Why treat them differently when we have laws that are most distinct to any other country?”
While I believe in freedom and choice, I am leaning toward agreeing with Sarah Kazim. Since I moved to Saudi Arabia in 2007, every time I step out the door, I must wear a black cloak (abaya) because, as my husband says, "It's the law of the land." He also insists that I cover my hair for the same reason, although in Jeddah, one can see some women without head coverings (hijab), especially at the malls. However the vast majority of women in Saudi Arabia not only cover their hair, but they wear the face veils (niqab) as well. Saudi women supposedly wear all of this garb because it is "their choice." This is not a religious requirement, nor is it a law. It is a cultural thing, although the women's dress code is enforced by the religious police who have been known to whack women on the ankles with a stick if too much ankle skin is showing.
All I know is that I feel I am forced to wear the abaya and the hijab when I'm in Saudi Arabia - because it would not be my choice to dress like that. And I doubt if I am the only woman in KSA who feels that it is not my choice.
Other related posts:
Voice Behind the Veil... (Sept. 22, 2010)
The Veil and the Hijab (July 9, 2010)
Hair Do or Hair Don't? (Feb. 7, 2009)
I understand that the Muslims have very strong cultural background and they don’t like anyone to interfere in it. However, the French are famous for their national pride, too. I think there should be a bit of acceptance on both sides.
ReplyDeleteSaudi is extreme with their laws and many of the things that happen in Saudi are falsely done in the name of religion. The French seem to want everyone to look and act the same, it's about assimilation not integration. France and Saudi are just examples of two countries with the opposite extreme laws.
ReplyDeletethe difference between people following saudi law and french law, is saudi does not claim to be a free democratic country. France however does, but it seems this freedom is limited and they have chosen to single out a small minority of muslim women (not that many women even wear it)
ReplyDeleteFrance was always pretty backward though lol :p
But there is a diference here. First of all, countries that ban the niqab claim to stand up for freedom, democracy and religious freedom. Saudi Arabia has never claimes to stand up for these rights, and therefore they are pretty clear with what they stand for while France and other countries say one thing but do another.
ReplyDeleteSecond of all, according to proper Islamic law, non-Muslim ladies should not even wear the hijab even though there is a general law that the dress should be "modest".
I don't think it is right to compare these countries with Saudi Arabia, it is like comparing apples with pears. If one thinks it right and proper to compare this way, then we either say that Saudi Arabia is a country that is countrie and system to imitate, or that countries like France are on the same level as Saudi.
"However the vast majority of women in Saudi Arabia not only cover their hair, but they wear the face veils (niqab) as well. Saudi women supposedly wear all of this garb because it is 'their choice.'"
ReplyDeleteFor a lot of women it is. I don't understand what the quotations marks is about? Even right now in Dubai, it is being overrun with Saudi's in my particular area, and all the women (Saudi) I see are still wearing niqab. If they wanted to take it off, they could.
Also, there is a whole other world out there besides America. Some of it might seem "unfair" to you, but you married a man from Saudi Arabia.. What did you expect? You made your bed, now lay in it.
I am offended when I see women wearing head coverings. It is a sign of the subjugation and domination of women. Any special clothing requirements that are enforced on women by religion or law should be banned.
ReplyDeleteTo all those women who choose the veil: how about then also choosing to live in Saudi Arabia?
ReplyDeleteAnd this is to all you ladies who are now talking indignantly about your "rights". Rights? I thought spirituality was all about submission.
Go France.
To ban the wearing of the veil is almost as bad as forcing the issue. When will women of the world be able to make their own choices?
ReplyDeleteI absolutely agree with the face veil ban. I have a right to see the faces of people around me in my country. End of story. IMHO this is a cultural/political issue in KSA.
ReplyDeleteThe banning law might seem harsh to a few women already in the country who have chosen to cover their face but it should be understood to future immigrants that it is not acceptable so they can make a choice to move to that country or not. Personally I'd love to see the ban in Canada.
Go France :-P
ReplyDeleteI've read several opinions of french muslim women and one simply made me wondering why don't you go to some islamic countries if you want to wear nijab, she said that she would follow french laws UNLESS they were against the koran! i mean as a citizen you must follow the laws no matter what.
I still think that whoever dress the nijab are forced to or simply braiwashed...which are the choices of a girl/woman who grow up in a strict muslim family and/or lives in ghettos where peer pressure will make you wear the nijab. And the converted woman i think they are simply brainwashed in wearing it or that sometimes love makes us do stupid thing.
Right now the muslim women who wears the nijab are a tiny fraction but what if in the near furture they will grown in numbers (look what happened in Egypt 30 years ago only few women wore the hijab and now they are pretty common)...this view of radical islam i spred from the mosques that are finanzed by guess who KSA!
I don't agree with niqaab and I don't even think it is a religious obligation. I don't apologise for feeling like this and siding with the French government.
ReplyDeleteSo what you're saying, in essence is that you'd prefer France or even US to be more like Saudi Arabia when it comes to women? Impose a particular dress style that doesn't provoke? Slippery slope... I'm not a fan of niqaab but I'm a big fan of "my body belongs to me" and personal freedom. If we ban the niqaab, why not ban full beards with moustache, facial percings and visible tattoos? All these things make people look scary, don't they?
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, Susie. When in Rome the saying goes. The laws of the land must be respected and adheared to by all, even visitors.
ReplyDeletePart of the reason that my MIL does not want to move here to the U.S. is that she LIKES covering her face in Saudi and would feel awkward doing it here.
ReplyDeleteWith that being said, I totally understand the ban. (insert rock throwing here) Not for some of the reasons they state (women are forced, it's oppressive, etc.) but because in this day and age it really is a big security issue. You can't go shopping, through the airport, in government buildings wearing a ski mask...so why should you be allowed to cover all but your eyes? It is not a religious requirement, which everyone largely agrees upon as it is even forbidden during hajj, so I don't think France is overstepping their boundaries if it's in the spirit of security and identification. If it's truly to "protect these women" who don't want France's protection, then I don't support them at all.
Why does Saudi ban wearing veils/niqab/burka during hajj ?
ReplyDeleteIs'nt wearing a veil a muslim religious requirement ?
why is the whole muslim world not upset with this ban by Saudi ?
I think part of the "upset" for muslims is coming from..
ReplyDelete"who are you to set rules for us Muslims..
Our rules can only be set by Koran or Mohd.
Other's, especially people who are not muslim have no right to set their rules on us.."
@ anonymous who is offended.
ReplyDeleteare you equally offended at women being used as pieces of meat to sell products/are you offended at a woman wearing a small boob tube and mini skirt picking her child up from school etc. or because her flesh is displayed thats her 'freedom' yet women who CHOOSE to cover are oppressed?!
@ anonymous who asked about hajj.
During hajj and umrah, one is in the state of ihram. Men cannot wear stiched clothes, rather 2 pieces of cloth and women cannot wear a niqab. This is from the hadith, it isnt Saudi law, it is Islamic law.
oh and anonymous who was offended.
ReplyDeleteStart saving the Nuns :p
I don't like it when the ban is made under the guise of women's issues or freedom. It's a security issue and the right of a citizen to see another's face when on the street, in a bank, etc. etc. etc.. Cinnamon Snow ... a niqab is not the same as a beard, tattoos or face piercings. It's nothing about looking scary - it's about seeing the face!!!!
ReplyDeleteTo all those ignorant women saying ban the veils, we choose to wear it. You want to suppress us, not anybody else.
ReplyDeleteSaudi Arabia has it all wrong, so does Iran. Islam calls for hijab, but it is an obligation to God, not to country, culture, or even religion. In Islam there is no earthly punishment for not wearing it. Why? Because it should be a choice. If you don't do it for God, there's no point in it for you.
France also had it wrong. No offense to all the women out there, but I am not subjugated. How could a peice of clothing ever suppress me if I choose it, love it, and make my own fashion out of it?
Ignorance on both sides.
To Helene, why don't you go live in Saudi Arabia then?
I'm a western born women. I have to give up my passport to believe as I do, and not get arrested and attend french propganda lessons? That's extreme, Taliban style, but french gov. style.
I would never move to KSA or Iran. But I DID move to Oman in GCC [Saudi's neighbor], where Muslim women AND Western women are allowed to dress as they believe and choose.
Bikini or niqab, it should be your choice. The Qu'ran says there is no compulsion in religion. But the niqab IS my choice, and I love it, and I work a high profile job, live in my own house (which I own), have a good education. It doesn't suppress me. Ignorant people who tell other people to move to other countries: DO.
They would if they could, alot of them. But that is a sick thing to say.
What about to the woman in Afghanistan who didn't want to wear a burka and you just tell her, why don't you move to USA? Yeah cuz she can afford to, and they'lljust give her a work visa and a new life sooooooooooo easily.
People, please, Saudi is one extreme, France is another, but don;t speak from ignorance or only one corner. If you are not Muslim, do not try and make laws for Muslims without their consultation and insight.
SmurfBurkan:
ReplyDeleteYou made some interesting comments.
"Saudi Arabia has never claimes to stand up for these rights, and therefore they are pretty clear with what they stand for while France and other countries say one thing but do another."
Correct. That is the human condition. And it is particularly disgusting when religiosity is used as a cover for personal interest.
However, from everything that I have read about Islam, non-Muslims are non-believers, and basically don't count. So why would a Muslim, any Muslim, take it upon themselves to tell a "non-believing" culture, what their values should be, since they obviously have none? For the same reason you just described: basic ordinary human hypocrisy.
Regardless of what pseudo explanation the French government gives, France is doing this because French shop owners, and French bank managers don't want masked people walking into their establishments. And I'm glad someone is finally taking a position.
If women want to be veiled, and yet live in France, then get carried off the plane inside your husband's suitcase, and then stay in purdah in your apartment.
@Helene,
ReplyDelete"To all those women who choose the veil: how about then also choosing to live in Saudi Arabia?"
A lot would like to live in Saudi but it's not so easy, you can't go there just because you want, Saudi Arabia doesn't open her door to everyone, it's difficult to obtain a visa (even when you are a muslim).
And i want add that it's not easy to go live in a muslim country when you don't have money, opportunities or family in the place...
French Aïcha
Omani Princess:
ReplyDeleteI read your post, and your question to me, but I can't figure out what you're talkin' about. Sorry. If you have a question for me, please relate it back to something I said.
I saw the video and both sides make very good points.
ReplyDeleteI personally don't like the face covering, hair covering I could see (many women do it in the US for fashion reasons), but to make it a law, I don't know about that either.
I'm all about personal choice, whatever makes you happy (within reason of course). :0) But, when in Rome too.
Simple test:
ReplyDeleteWould all muslims, who feel offended by this law in France support a woman's choice ?
Will they support giving the woman a choice and remove the restrictive laws in islamic countries ?
Will they support a woman who dress as she wants, especially woman who left islam or not born in islam ?
Omani Princess -
ReplyDeleteIf you visit another country, you must follow their laws, period. Do your homework before you go. The world doesn't owe you any special treatment because you practice your faith. Why can't you be so vocal and indignant about the extremist nonsense? Why aren't you out in the streets protesting their ignorance? Those ignoramuses are desecrating the tenets of your faith. Getting riled up about a country enacting laws for the majority, not the minority, (as it should be, it's called the law of averages and a so-called successful person like yourself would know that) is a waste of productive energy. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Always have, always will.
>The world doesn't owe you any special treatment because you practice your faith.
ReplyDeleteEven if one believes that GOD (or Muslim god Allah) said so ?
the whole issue is, religious muslims believing their beliefs are supreme and EVERYONE else should accomodate or respect their laws.
Non-muslims have NO RIGHT to pass anything that offends them..
For those muslims, reciprocity does not apply ..
If Muslims are going to protest the banning of cultural clothing in a nonMuslim country then they should also protest the enforced wearing of that cultural clothing in their own country's (or Islamic countries etc). You cant point a finger at one country and say how dare you ban me from wearing this...but then ignore another country that forces the wearing of it. In both cases there are women wanting to wear it but cant...and other women who dont want to wear it but have too...why are these two issues looked at as separate?
ReplyDeleteMuslims say, well France claims to be a democratic country so they cant ban us from wearing this. France can do whatever they want to do, as any other country can and does. They have just redefined what they consider permissable in their country...you dont like it..leave. A quote I have heard a thousand fold times from Muslims in Muslim countries to nonMuslims who do not like the laws etc.
So leave, take your niqab that you cant be seen without and go live in a country that allows you to wear it...then everyone is happy and life goes on.
Muslims are meant to abide by the rules of the land they live in. Niqab is NOT Islamically mandated (neither is hijab in my opinion but thats another story) and whether France allowed the wearing of it yesterday is beside the point because today they dont (so to speak)..it is no longer allowed and its France's right to say so. Just as it's Saudis right to ignore the world and enact their own laws which subjugate women, nonSaudis, nonMuslims etc
@ anonymous if you visit another country.
ReplyDeletehahaha thats why most westerners go into their compounds in saudi arabia :p
And muslims DO speak against extremism. therell be marches with thousands of muslims peaceful and another march with a couple of hundred extremists and guess who the media visits are reports about?
Its not about a law for the majority, france specifically targetted muslim women. Its getting riled up about a so called democratic free country whos president is some sick pervert that he wants women uncovered.
Then you people look at saudi arabia saying its not free haha freedom of speech/expression etc only works when it suits YOU then???
@ anonymous simple test.
The requirement in Muslim countries is Westerners dress modestly. The Quran doesnt actually include non muslim women in the verses to cover. If you had been to Saudi, you would know for your OWN good it is better to wear atleast an abaya.
and would i support the choice to remove islamic law? No, i wouldnt. The point here is a so called 'free' country is imposing laws in the name of freedom, whilst blasting islamic countries for doing the same thing on only the opposite side...
"right now in Dubai, it is being overrun with Saudi's in my particular area, and all the women (Saudi) I see are still wearing niqab. If they wanted to take it off, they could."
ReplyDeleteNo they couldn't! That's the point. The women are under the thumb of the males in their family - and the veil is part of that. The veil is not the pinnacle of subjugation - it is a part. It is a part of how the family controls the bodies of women family members. In France, the state is stepping in and saying: you have no right to control women in this way. That is shown in the punishments on women in niqab ~$200. And the men who force them to wear it ~$40,000.
If you don't like it, don't go to France. Go where you are welcome as you are.
coolred- youre comments bring up the issue on muslims in west + muslims in muslim countries.
ReplyDeleteAre you saying because we are muslims, we 'belong' as such to islamic countries, not the countries we were born in?
If a African Christian country imposed a law on Christians then should the complainers look at European/American laws and compare with their African country?
My point is- stop looking at Islamic countries and compare with Western ones.Totally different
@ anonymous Thu Apr 14, 08:30:00 PM 2011
ReplyDeletethats just dumb. so on top of the women being 'controlled' they are also being punished by the state. What kind of messed up freedom is that?
Proud niqab wearer and in no way subjugated. infact i will fight any man that opposes MY choice. ;)
I still think the majority of women who wears the nijab arenìt doing so by their free will. A muslim born from her birth is kept under the thumb of her family, she is by peer/family/relative pressure forced to wear it even though she isn't in a muslim country....severals year ago i saw a ghost, a woman who wore the nijab wore gloves and she even had a mesh weil covering her eyes, with her there was his daugher she was around 5 but she was already wore the hijab....I'm wondering which will the choice of this poor girl (and this happened in ITaly)..
ReplyDeleteAnother point are the converted who sometimes are moreroyalistic tham the king...for some of them it seems that when they converted they formatted their brain they think that anyone who isn't muslim is less than dirty, i sometime visit their blog and they keep on saying that they are proud of wearing the nijab but they are angry because they alway picked up by people around....they wore the nijab because they want to be humble but they stood up like a sore thumb and by doing so the humblness is gone....
Btw so for none told me where in the koran is written that women have to wear the nijab!
country girl.
ReplyDeletei am a born muslim. my extended family members do NOT wear the NIQAB(atleast get the terms right-niqab face covering, hijab-head covering) infact several males in my family have shown dislike of MY choice of wearing it so there goes your theory that we are forced.
You really want Quran proof? Ok 33:59, also read the tafsir and ahaadith regarding this verse. At the most niqab is obligatory at the least it is recommended.
lastly nuns wear modest clothing, are they forced too????????
@sweetlikechocolate "whos president is some sick pervert that he wants women uncovered. "
ReplyDeleteYes of course that must be the reason. Nicolas Sarkozy must be so tired of looking at his beautiful super model wife that decided to change the laws of his land, and create worldwide furore, just so he could look at a few muslim women's faces. That makes so much sense, what intelligent insight you have.
@sweetlikechocolate Since when nuns hide their faces? They wear a veil but NOTHING that HIDE their face, you can't compare nuns with muslim women...
ReplyDeleteMaybe you chose to wear the nijab but what about women that are forced to wear it, what about the ones who are brainwashed in wearing it?
Just yeasterday an italian converted was beaten by his husband becauase she went out WITHOUT wearing the nijab! so it's her choice to wear it.
I will stand with my opinion that i welcome France with the ban, you want to wear it simply don't visit France.
You can definy modesty also by don't appear, don't stood out but if a woman wear the nijab in a wetern country the concept of modesty will go to hell.
@ really
ReplyDeleteyup even models grow old :p
It also seems that some women decide to wear the niqab in an attempt at being 'superior' or 'better than' other female Muslims in regards to their faith.
ReplyDelete@ countrygirl
ReplyDeleteBy your previous definition-you said a woman is forced to wear. Forced to wear what? Just the niqab? not the hijab? So you think when a woman covers her hair its her choice but her face=shes forced?
since you have confused the terms niqab and hijab......
Yeh sure there are women who are forced, just like society has forced women into eating disorders/being so body concious/ doing things to our body just to 'keep up' Arent there many young girls sexualised? But all thats ok??
@ Wendy- hmm i dont really think so. I was discussing this with someone a couple of days ago, a person that doesnt wear hijab and they were all 'its between me and God no one can judge me'. My personal opinion is, i actually dont give another persons niqab or lack of niqab a second thought. Its those that DONT wear it that tend to be on a defense. A person may wear the niqab but struggle in other parts of faith, at the end of the day God knows whats in our hearts.
Whilst i dont judge others on a personal level, i will fight for my right to wear it though
Im sure Nicolas Sarkozy really wants to look at a load of grotty women who probably don't even wear make-up or pluck their facial hair. You lot certainly think a lot of yourselves don't you? The vanity astounds me.
ReplyDeletethe bottom line is this: any country has the right to decide for itself what it will and will not accept in terms of social issues. Saudi has decided that it wants to enforce draconain laws and so it does on every one... whether they like it or not are Muslim or not. France has decided to take a stand on a security based issue. Unless I am very much mistaken they have not said that the women can't wear it in private or in their mosque or in the homes of their friends. They have said in the PUBLIC realm. They have that right. I can't walk around urinating in public or with my shirt off if I like because that is outside of what they have said is acceptable in the public realm.
ReplyDeleteShould they give niqabis a pass on showing their faces for passports, banks, court houses, voting etc? No...once again all these things require we see one's face.
It is not a requirement of the Koran but rather a wahabbised cultural affectation that some Muslims have adopted as a MUST. If you chose to take it on yourself and live that lifestyle...you then must take the difficulties that come with it. Just as if I lived in KSA...I'd have to wear an abaya even though I am not muslim and it isn't part of MY faith...
In the western culture and most in the world it is normal to see the face. That is how people judge others emotions in large part and so much of communication is NOT verbal.
I think people can wear most whatever they like but covering the face is a big no no in my book. I support France. Too many people whine it is a "free" country. Well free does not mean ANYTHING goes...there are limits on either end...no nudes running down the Champs Elysees and no niqabis parading around either.
And I agree with whoever said above if you are going to complain about not having your rights in one country why not also worry about human rights in another such as KSA for example.
As for the person who said they targeted muslims...as far as I knew it was a ban against ANY full time face coverings....not just niqab.
as to nuns wearing modest clothing...most nuns nowadays do not wear a "habit" which is what the nun outfit is called. They wear modern clothes like any other woman and you would most likely not know they were a nun.These nuns work in the community with people and dress like they do...the nuns that wear the covering...which btw NEVER includes a face covering like the niqab...are what we call cloistered nuns..."cloistered" meaning that they don't go out in the community and work with the people. They stay within the confines mostly of the abbey or convent.
ReplyDeleteSo even in the world of nuns they themselves have adopted a dress code that is in line with the country they are in and the job they do...
Also, a nun has a vocation to God. She has dedicated her life to god. To prayer , often to poverty voluntarily, to serve the sick, to help the poor...to forgo sex and men and children and marriage in her desire to fully devote her life to god. In exchange she wears this costume or habit as s sign that she has given up all her worldly goods and conveniences and is willing in her pursuit of god to surrender all things and wear this simplistic outfit...unlike a niqabi the nun doesn't have some cute pair of jeans or a shiny pair of high heels under the abaya...unlike the niqabi she doesn't get to have a sexual relationship with a man. A niqabi has given up nothing in terms of fancy clothes, makeup, men, perfume, money, career, children etc. Meaning that if she chooses, all those options are available to her. The nun gives it ALL up in the pursuit for her closeness to god. The niquabi has to sacrifice none of that for her love of god. The niqabi wears the niqab to be kept from being seen by men...what has she sacrificed in her search for a closer relationship to god?
I don't respect people who choose to live in a fantasy world but none the less feel free to blast their fantastical ignorance into the world.
ReplyDeleteThose who believe that millions upon millions of women who veil are not forced to do so are living in fantasy world.
"There is no compulsion in Islam."
Tell that to the man who is hitting your ankles with a stick.
How come these problems aren't surfacing in america? i mean there are quite a few niqab wearers here, but such a discussion never comes up. woohoo first amendment!
ReplyDeleteFrance does not live up to its slogan "Liberty Equality Fraternity" it infringes on the rights of the women who wear the niqab, taking away their "liberty" to wear the veil.
they haven't been given a say in the constitution that has been amended for their so called benefit. there goes equality and fraternity.
to those people who argue move to an islamic country if you want to wear the veil... really? why don't you issue me the visa then? you can't just walk into another country and live there.
i have to say i am very tired of everyone trying to tell me as a muslim woman what choice to make. the argument that the niqab is forced on muslim woman is no different than forcing a muslim woman to take it off.
And to those people who need to see my face to communicate with me i have one sentence for you : don't communicate with me. PROBLEM SOLVED!
@ really
ReplyDeletelol :p you sure dont know things about veil wearers.
but no we dont think too much of ourselves. Its people like you who assume and attack us that puts us in immediate defense mode.
It may be Western culture to see the face when communicating-but come on if a woman is covered walking down the street what is it your business? youre not communicating with her, shes going about doing her stuff. Do you look at every single persons face who passes you/sits near you in a restaurant/ studies in the library etc?
@ oby- the problem is, we dont wear niqab in private. its a public thing. the first thing i do when i get home it take off the black. its not required or worn in ones home.
about the security issue- i totally agree with you and have shown my face many times for security purposes-infact islamically for identification purposes this is actually required.
Regarding the Quran-actually after the verse was revealed, the women at the time of the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him tore their aprons and covered their faces. so it isnt a 'Wahhabi' thing at all.
now im just thinking about health masks.
@ oby- nun comment. my point was how come people dont see nuns as oppressed, just muslim women? Isnt it a nuns choice? Therefore cant it be a muslim womans choice?
a niqabi has closened her relationship with God by doing an action she believes is pleasing to Him based on The Quran and Sunnah. There were men in the time of the Prophet pbuh that said they wouldnt marry, would fast all the time, would pray all night etc. The Prophet pbuh when hearing this was not supportive of this extremism when giving up things that God permitted.
Good for France. There is NO place in public where a person's face that can not be seen should be allowed. There are public camera's all over taking pictures, monitoring people. As technology is getting more and more advanced, face recognition software is getting better and better. I can only wish in the usa we would pick up something like this. I dare say large clothing that can hide a persons body should somehow be banned but not sure how countries could enforce that.
ReplyDeleteI live in UAE and what amazes me is a women that is completely veiled but has hooker heels on, manicured nails with as much jewelry as they can fit on their hand and wrist, and eyes caked in goo... thinking they are being modest. And alot of them will have the NIQAB on!!! What is the use?? It isnt for modesty. If they are not being forced or were brain washed into doing this from a young age, there is just no other excuse for it. Someone told a girl over and over and over that it is the modest and right thing to do and the family members reinforce this behavior. Such a shame in my mind but such is life and unfortunatly some women wont stand up and say enough. A man is to dress modest as well but you dont see them covering their face!
Actually, veiling is not a quranic thing...it is a cultural thing.That meas a LOT of msulim women are not following scripture...at best it is a choice in the quran.
ReplyDelete"Veiling was first applied in Assyria in the 13th century. Women of noble origin were required to wear a veil to distinguish themselves from commoners and prostitutes."
"In the chapter of Nur, God says: "And tell believing women that they should lower their glances, guard their private parts, and not display their charms beyond what [it is acceptable] to reveal; they should let their headscarves fall to cover their necklines and not to revel their charms." [24:11]"
No where there does it say that one should let it fall to cover the face. It says acceptable to reveal...well if you follow the Saudi way that means nothing...as they cover even hands and feet. That makes no sense. They say charms which many people believe mean bossoms. We even still call bossoms charms today but I have never heard a face referred to that way.
So again..if countries around the world have a sovereign right to decide for themselves what is acceptable how is that wrong...and if you don't agree that that is the case (in France) then we must consider changing saudi arabia's veiling law and make it OK not to for nonmuslims.They should be able to wear what they like. You can't say it is ok for islamic countries to impose these strict rules on nonmulims but it is not ok for west to decide what they like. That is a total double standard.
The bottom line is what you want for yourself (veiling in france and the choice to wear what you like) you must advocate for others (non veiling and wearing what nonmulms want in KSA) otherwise that makes you a hypocrite. The next best thing is to adopt a "when in rome" attitude. If I am going to live in KSA or anywhere else that requires robes or modest clothing then I am going to have to follow the rules...plain and simple. And if my religion requires me to wear a big honking cross a foot big so no one can miss the fact I am a chrisitian, then I either modify that and wear a small one no one sees, I risk arrest or I don't go there. But people always figure that they can protect their societies to be like they want them to be and then try to make others societies as they want them to be.
And it is a wahabbi/salafi custom that has been imported from KSA.
"The wave of hijab-wearers grew bigger in the 1980s as more Egyptian families moved to Saudi Arabia and al-Khaleej to live and work. When they returned to their homeland, many brought with them the SOCIAL teachings of conservative Arab countries."
(caps added by me)
That came from a Muslimahs blog so she herself says so.
As for the person that doesn't want anyone to communicate with her:
I think you hit the nail on the head. The whole veil thing is exactly what keeps you from communicating with people who are not muslim. You purposely separate yourself from everyone. The quran dictates that a muslim should be modest and not draw attention to herself. By the Salafi costume you get the stares of everyone which by definition is no longer modest is it? So by wearing that outfit in a country where it is uncommon you are automatically not being modest and not following quranic edict.
part 2:
ReplyDeleteBut I am not one that thinks all muslims are forced to wear it. I think they wear it often willingly...but I also think that there is a smugness that goes with it...a way of saying "hey look at me! I am a devout Muslim. I am closer to God than a muslim who doesn't wear it". I believe in many cases it is an attention getting device which of course is the opposite of the commandment to be modest and not draw attention to yourself.
And as for a "few women who wear it so it isn't a problem" argument...those of us who are old enough can remember when hijab was worn by only a few women..in the space of 30 years almost everyone wears it...so that "it's only a few" line holds no water for me at all. Given time and enough salafi pressure most muslims would be wearing it. And BTW...nowadays many muslims think of Saudi Islam (hence they wear the "suit")as the gold standard and many nonmulsims have been sold that line too....what they don't realize is that until about 30 years ago Saudi/slalfi islam was not the standard. It was a tiny tiny player in the islam market in the west. The ( ksa) have invested billions of dollars worldwide but particularly in the West to spread this version of islam so people think it is the norm...and I have always found it funny that salfis cry foul on consumerism and all the money that is spent in the west on advertising when that is EXACTLY how salaifsm got spread...by billions of dollars in investment, building mosques that put their salafi imams in and crowding out any other form of islam so that the world thinks that this is THE true islam...ridiculous because Arabs are only 20% of the Muslim population but people feel like they have to follow salfi islam.They don't know the other islams that exist out there or they feel they aren't true. Well, they were true until Saudi advertised this brand if islam heavily. So I guess while they criticize the west for their influence, it is fine and dandy to do it yourself exactly the same way it was done in the west for any product...advertise enough and everyone thinks they need it. They call westerners brainwashed but they don't realize they too have been sold a bill of goods and are brainwashed by the salafisits.
@ oby if we are talking Quran then please point out to me the rules of salah/rakahs etc. You wont find it in the Quran. Youll find it in the Hadith/Sunnah.
ReplyDeleteFor face-same thing. Read that tafsir of verse 33:59. What did Ibn Abbas radhiallahu anhu the one gifted in Quran Tafsir do as explanation for this verse? Read Sahih Bukhari. What did Ayesha may Allah be pleased with her say on this ayah? What did the women do?
@ oby if we are talking Quran then please point out to me the rules of salah/rakahs etc. You wont find it in the Quran. Youll find it in the Hadith/Sunnah.
ReplyDeleteFor face-same thing. Read that tafsir of verse 33:59. What did Ibn Abbas radhiallahu anhu the one gifted in Quran Tafsir do as explanation for this verse? Read Sahih Bukhari. What did Ayesha may Allah be pleased with her say on this ayah? What did the women do?
Nuns are not forced into anything. They have chosen to become nuns. Yes, there are some converts to Islam but the majority are born to the religion and wouldn't think of leaving it for many and varied reasons including fear. Even for those few groups of nuns who still wear the habit they have never covered their face!
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry but the right to cover your face in public does not trump my right to be able to see the people's faces around me in public.Do what you want in your home, mosque or other private space but don't infringe on my rights.
@ oby:
ReplyDeleteyour translation of the verses is just that .. .your translation. a lot got lost, you translated jalabeebihinna as head scarves when it means no such thing. and the verse itself doesn't talk about the bosom. the closest literal translation is: O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. "
points off for incorrect translation.
What we find is that women wore outer garments like the abaya and hijab when going out but later on the verse asked them to cloak themselves further. since the word 'alaihinna is used the closest translation is " over themselves" and if you put a cloak over your head it does cover your face.
from the hadith we find that after this verse was revealed the sahabiyat covered themselves completely to the point that they looked like black crows.
the problem is you think it is cultural while i think it is a religious requirement. it would not be hypocritical of me to have the right to wear the veil in a secular/ democratic country and not support the right of those who don't want to veil in saudia. since the laws of the lands are different. one is based on freedom of choice and one is grounded in religious law.
the bottom line is no matter how you try to sugar coat the ban on veiling it is an infringement of rights granted by the democratic country's own constitution. the fact that they choose to overlook this is hypocrisy.
@ wendy
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry but the right to cover your face in public does not trump my right to be able to see the people's faces around me in public
err yes it does. You forgot its MY body, MY choice. If you dont wana see bikini clad women at a beach are you gonna say its YOUR right not to see them or is it their right to wear?
and are you saying there are no people who are born into christianity? are there no communties in america (amish) who are pressured into being that way from birth? You fail to realise that maybe the reason we dont leave islam is because it is the truth and we WANT to be muslims?
Then they should live in a country that welomes the niqab and running around hidden is the norm.
ReplyDelete@ Wendy
ReplyDeleteHow do you feel when you see punks/people with loads of piercings etc?
sweetlikechocolate said... ”If you had been to Saudi, you would know for your OWN good it is better to wear atleast an abaya.”?
ReplyDeleteNow why would anyone, especially a free, Western woman go to a land where women are forced to veil and wear at least an abaya because the men cannot behave themselves?
Any woman can wear most anything that they desire in any part of the world, except the Islamic world. Why? Because Muslim men are out of control lechers! It has been well established that Muslim males, especially Arabs, Egyptians, Turks and African Muslims harass women whether these are veiled or not. This does not happen in the rest of the world. Yes, there are criminals and sexual predators, but that is another matter. The majority of nonMuslim men are decent, law abiding and do not believe that it is their right to harass women, as do so many men in dar al Islam.
The fact is that the veil subjugates women and makes them LESS equal than men. This is why in a democratic country the veil is not appropriate. Sharia law is also not appropriate.
”Are you saying because we are muslims, we 'belong' as such to islamic countries, not the countries we were born in? “
Of course, many are saying that, because, if you want to bring DISCRIMINATORY Islamic law to the nonIslamic world that will NOT fly! Sharia law is undemocratic and discriminatory. Islam renders women less than men. In modern democracies this is AGAINST the law!
Therefore, if you want Islamic law then MOVE to an Islamic nation.
SLC said... ”Proud niqab wearer and in no way subjugated. infact i will fight any man that opposes MY choice. ;)”
As a convert you are typical of the brainwashed types. Perhaps men rejected you or perhaps you had loose morals and could not become a moral person on your own. Evidently you need laws and rules for every waking and sleeping moment of life. People with a moral compass do not! If you are happy in a walking-prison good for you. However, in the nonMuslim world that is NOT appropriate and not permitted.
Nuns have taken vows in a religious order; ordinary Muslim women are not in a religious order! Modern nuns typically wear blue or grey business suits without a veil or any sort of head covering. This type of attire would NOT be permitted in Saudi Arabia. It would be considered risque because the nuns show their hair, faces, necks, arms, hands and legs.
Beauty and body consciousness is part of the human condition. In fact, it is the Nature of things. The pretty bird gets the mate. Call it biology.
MOST women in the Western world and many in the developing world are fat, especially the Arabs where diseases of overweight are rampant. The Muslims are some of the most sex-obsessed, body conscious people on the planet. A ton of sexy clothing, makeup, lingerie and sex toys are sold to the Arab world and beyond. Those who can afford it buy decadent, Western stuff.
sweetlikechocolate said... ”How do you feel when you see punks/people with loads of piercings etc?”
I do not have a problem with that because it is a choice and it is not against the law. Piercings do not make people unequal under the law, while the veil does. Female punks with purple hair and piercings will not inherit less than a man, nor is their testimony in court half that of a man nor will they not get custody of their children just because they are female punks, while a Muslim woman must suffer all of those and more as a lesser being.
The fact is that Muslims will NEVER convince the majority of the world that supremacist Islam does not discriminate against women and nonMuslims. Wear your sack, but do that in a nonIslamic nation!
If you want to live in the West, and especially in France or other parts of Europe, then kindly obey their customs and laws or leave!
Just as Susie is forced to obey the draconian laws of KSA, everyone else must obey the laws of the lands that they visit or in which they reside. Stop trying to force your supremacist cult ways onto the rest of the world.
Anonymous...
ReplyDeleteIf you read closely I put it in quotes and said it came from the blog of a muslimah...so if it wrong, don't blame me...blame the muslimah...which I think goes to show you that even in islam there are many interpretations of right and wrong. Sadly too many Muslims don't give the space for people to interpret their faith as they see fit they point fingers and think that their interpretation is the "right" one. I think Allah is happy that people are doing their best to get to him and people should not worry about anyone else's journey but their own.
Annonymous....
ReplyDelete" it would not be hypocritical of me to have the right to wear the veil in a secular/ democratic country and not support the right of those who don't want to veil in saudia. since the laws of the lands are different. one is based on freedom of choice and one is grounded in religious law."
I disagree with your statement but lets take another country that does not claim islam as the law of the land...pick one..Turkey or Egypt or any other...shouldn't people be able to wear what they like there? Without hassle or intimidation? Should a non muslim have to wear modest clothing? By your law of the land argument they shouldn't have to. I would argue they should..for a couple of reasons...one, I am a firm believer in when in Rome...so if I go somewhere I try to respect the laws of the country and if it isn't law then at least the customs. In India I wear Indian clothes, for example.
Secondly, beyond my trying to respect the culture...the culture would NOT respect my right to wear whatever I wanted. That is because it is culturally NOT acceptable...even though it isn't the law, my wearing my enormous cross is not culturally acceptable and would almost assuredly cause me problems.
So in the case of cultural differences where it isn't the law of the land shouldn't I be able to wear my shorts, HUGE cross, and tshirt without problems...or should I respect the culture of the country...say Egypt or Iraq or another ME country?
As for countries in the West based on freedom...not always the case. Laws change all the time. I have never understood why people think that in the West everything goes....believe it or not they have their limits too. For example in USA 20 years ago smoking was allowed pretty much everywhere. Now most states have enacted smoking bans and one can't smoke in public buildings and in many restaurants depending on the state. Surely that infringes on some peoples right to enjoy a good smoke. But the government decided that in the best interest of the public that they would no longer allow it. We even have some religious restrictions in the USA even though everyone thinks it is totally free. The point is that laws can and DO change when needed. someone will always be on the negative end of that...and that is how it is. France has decided that it is not in the publics best interest. They have that right, as obnoxious as it is to some. Do you feel that niqabis should be exempt from showing their face if they are stopped by the police for a traffic violation? How about showing their face for voting or going into a bank, or showing their passport...gotta make sure that matches. How about if you are in an accident and need emergency care? should the paramedics not be allowed to see your face in the ambulance to determine if you have facial injuries? what about the doctors who will treat you? There may not be a female around at the drop of a hat? What about all that? How do you propose it be managed?
@ marianne.
ReplyDeleteAny woman can wear most anything that they desire in any part of the world, except the Islamic world.
not in France. :p
ok on a serious note-im not a convert, born muslim here. but im not arab either. Islam is not a religion only for Arabs. As for men looking, i agree with you that alot (not all) men tend to have 'long eyes' in the Arab world. Though there are many leering men in the West also im sure we both agree-maybe in the opposite way, but a leering man is a leering man.
Islam renders women less than men. In modern democracies this is AGAINST the law!
incorrect. Women and men are treated justly. Women have just as many rights as men. Infact, Islamically it is a man who is under more pressure because he is the one responsible for the things 'going wrong'. Remember, when women werenet earning/able to keep their own money/inherit etc ISLAM came and gave women these rights for centuries. The Western woman is only enjoying these rights as of what? 100 years? Dont pretend that the West doesnt have discrimination of any sort.
As a convert you are typical of the brainwashed types. Perhaps men rejected you or perhaps you had loose morals and could not become a moral person on your own
As i said, born and bread muslim.
I find it hilarious you think you are free for the way you are thinking but im brainwashed? and only relationship i had was the one where im married. and yes i chose my own husband. so no im not brainwashed, im not oppressed and maybe you should start getting your head around the fact maybe women WANT to cover? Not everyone wants to display our flesh for every man thats looking?
whats wrong with looking good, wearing makeup, sexy clothing etc? Did i say i was against any of that? i just believe if youre dressing sexy then it should be for your husband, not him and every man looking.
umm do you know the laws of inheritence in Islam? Do you know why the ruling is like that?
and dont talk about custody, we know in the West *most of the time* its in favour of the mother...
Youre telling me to stop forcing my laws on the rest of the world, how about you stop forcing your opinions on others? Am i saying i want YOU to wear niqab? NO. im saying it should be a womans RIGHT especially in a so called free country. NOT freedom for all EXCEPT muslim women.
ITS OPPRESSION TO BAN US
@ oby,
ReplyDeletesince you mentioned Turkey and Egypt. Those two countries already discriminate and give alot of trouble to women who WEAR niqab...And in both of those countries you shouldnt have any problem wearing the shirt and shorts and even the cross. as for the cross, would you wear it in America, or would you just wear it to aggravate muslims?
as for showing our faces for security purposes, it has already been mentioned that is totally FINE. in all the cases you have mentioned. Ive travelled many times and shown my face without hesitation for secutiry purposes and have NO PROBLEM doing it. are you saying that there are not western clothes that will not be allowed in courts/banks/airport security etc. Yesterday a man was reported running in the london marathon in a mankini. Can he go to court/banks/airports/whatever else you mentioned in that? Would a woman in her stripping work gear be allowed to go into court wearing her strip gear? Are bikinis allowed to be worn in airport/courts/banks? Should these clothings be banned totally?
Sweetlikechocolate .... I could care less about face piercings and tattoos. If they want to do that to themselves that's their choice. Point is that I can still see their face.
ReplyDelete@sweetlikechocolate you say "Women and men are treated justly. Women have just as many rights as men."
ReplyDeleteYou are wrong, as a matter of fact.
Many opportunities are denied women under Islamic law, from giving equal testimony
in court to having the right to exclude other wives from their marital bed. This is very clear proof that women are of lesser value then men in Islam. Muslim women are not even free to marry outside the faith without being killed by their own families.
The Qur'an:
Qur'an (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176).
Qur'an (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women."
Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"
Qur'an (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four"
Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"
Bukhari (2:28) - Women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants.
The revered Islamic scholar, al-Ghazali, who has been called 'the greatest Muslim after Muhammad,' writes that the role of a Muslim woman is to "stay at home and get on with her sewing. She should not go out often, she must not be well-informed, nor must she be communicative with her neighbors and only visit them when absolutely necessary; she should take care of her husband... and seek to satisfy him in everything... Her sole worry should be her virtue... She should be clean and ready to satisfy her husband's sexual needs at any moment." [as quoted from Ibn Warraq]
A Yemeni cleric recently explained in a television broadcast what it is that makes women inferior and unable, say, to serve as good witnesses: "Women are subject to menstruation, when their endurance and mental capacity for concentration are diminished. When a woman witnesses a killing or an accident, she becomes frightened, moves away, and sometimes even faints, and she cannot even watch the incident."
Islamic law also specifies that hen a woman is murdered by a man, er family is owed only half as much "blood money" as they would be if she had been a man.
ok first off youre quoting al ghazalis opinion which was when? What different were the women in the west doing then (except they were owned by their men, didnt inherit etc)
ReplyDeleteNotice i did not say islam treated man and woman EQUALLY i said JUSTLY.
Because men and women are NOT equal.
Inheritence. Will you continue with regards to the rule on inheritence instead of just quoting a line. Will you not put how a man is required to support his sister/wife/mother/niece/daughter etc with that money whilst the womans money remains hers? will you not put in islam it is the sisters or whoevers right to go to her mahram for support financial or otherwise. so in effect, the man may get double that he has to spend on many women, whereas the woman gets half that is hers and hers alone?
court/testimony-you will no doubt agree but i totally as a woman understand that
Polygamy-islam is the only religion that LIMITED the amount of wives a man is allowed. the free west doesnt mind men having affairs, doesnt mind children born out of wedlock, doesnt mind group orgys, yet minds a woman getting her FULL rights as a wife rather than a mistress. lol
majority of hell-quote the full hadith and the reason why. Backbiting....
many women will attest that during their PMS they lash out at husbands and in those moments would divorce him if they could. Ofcourse these feelings go as the PMS does.
Now since you are talking about EQUALITY not JUSTNESS. Tell me what is the rule of maternity leave in your country? how long is it? And paternity leave?
@ Wendy - I'm not a niqabi, nor do I have the desire to ever be one. BUT, who ever said it was a right to see the faces of those around you on the street? If you were a business owner, I suppose it may be within your rights to require to see one's face within your business, but as a citizen going about your business, the other citizens rights to dress as they please trump your right to see what you want of them.
ReplyDeleteIt gets super cold here in the winter, and it's normal for people to walk around in ski masks. If I walk by them, is it my right demand they remove it because it is "my right to see their face." Of course not! It's cold, they've chosen to cover accordingly, and it's their right to keep on their identity concealing mask.
Do I have any rights that trump those of the people walking around wearing offensively short shorts and skirts? Do I have any rights that require the waitress at my restaurant to put her boobs where they belong...out of my husband's line of sight! Do I have any rights that allow me to not be bombarded with nudity on billboards as I'm driving, on magazines in the checkout at the store, etc. etc. etc.????? No, I do not. Their right to dress as modest or immodest as they see fit trumps my right to see as little or as much as I want of the people around me.
I am not one that goes around complaining about what others are wearing. I've grown up here in the U.S. and I'm used to it and could quite frankly care less how someone else dresses. My point is, the individual's right to dress how he/she pleases will ALWAYS trump the passerby's right to see more or less of that person. I'm not talking about security, I'm talking about your example of "your right to see their faces." Um, actually, it's not your right.
Sweetlikechocolate...
ReplyDeleteI bring up the visual of the cross to make a point. It isn't a matter of aggravation...it is a very visible sign of Christianity...just as niqab is a very visible sign of Islam.
So Muslims in Egypt or where ever would be annoyed if I wore a cross that was very visable...yes I think that would be accurate...do you think they should be annoyed? Do you think they have a right to be annoyed? Why would they have a right to be annoyed? Is it because it is culturally not acceptable? if that is the case I would agree with you.I would fully expect them to be annoyed because it is not acceptable CULTURALLY. Now let's look at France...they have said yes to everything a Muslim wants to wear EXCEPT covering the face because it is a security risk in their opinion and it isn't culturally acceptable...same as the cross in Egypt. So why should we say that Egyptians have the right to be annoyed and the French do not? Isn't it fair if the Egyptians decide for themselves what they want and do not want culturally that the French should be able to also?
If we have this double standard then what you are saying is that Islamic rights supercede nonilsamic ones OR that muslims in the Islamic world are MUCH less tolerant than Christians in the West.Niqab notwithstanding, you can cover to your heats contentright down to the socks.
I think the main issue here is that Mulsims want what they want in the Islamic world (and aren't willing to give rights to anyone else) and want what they want in the western world. And the West is so used to intolerance and xenophobia of the islamic world that it is accepted as a de facto fact of life. No one questions it. "that's just the way it is" it is OK for them to discriminate in every way possible (but they would NEVER call it that would they? ) but the west is supposed to swallow everything that anyone wants to call religion. So now the west is pushing back a bit...NOTHING in comparison to islamic countries in terms of restrictions...and people are so upset...
Why are they not upset about the discriminations showed on a daily basis to Nonmuslims in Muslim countries? How can you cry on one hand about discrimination when it is happening daily in the ME?
AT least when we talk about human rights most people here would also wish the same thing for the people of the ME. (I am talking about the people of the countries NOT the governments which might have a different agenda)
"Polygamy-islam is the only religion that LIMITED the amount of wives a man is allowed. the free west doesnt mind men having affairs, doesnt mind children born out of wedlock, doesnt mind group orgys, yet minds a woman getting her FULL rights as a wife rather than a mistress. lol"
ReplyDeleteThey are allowed 4 women at one time...others everywhere in the world are allowed one at a time.
Can the Westerners marry one after another if they choose after divorcing the first? absolutely...but so can the muslim man...he can take another as soon as he divorces one to make room. So what is the difference there except that in the Western world they devote themselves to one at a time. Do some men take a mistress? sure some do...how is that any different than "marrying" four women, having lots of kids and not spending much time with any of them...(only 24 hours in a day).Other than it is "legal".
The difference comes in when a man takes a mistress it is not acceptable in the eyes of society. When he has children with the mistress it is not OK in the eyes of society. He can lose his children and all his property. Such a man is ridiculed and thought of as a horrible person. In court a woman will have all the rights. In Islam a man can have sex with four women at the same time. Unless the Western man is amazingly rich OR superhuman there is VERY minimal chance he will have a wife and 3 mistresses. Besides, the Quran made polygamy for marrying women who are at a disadvantage...poor,older,have children already..women whose husbands had been killed in war...how many Muslim men are standing in line to take on a widow, older woman or one with a bunch of kids?
As for inheritance and women's rights in the West you are right...for a long time women didn't have equality in the division of property etc. But thankfully, women got wise and demanded their rights and now are equal to men under the law...and once that happened men lost a lot of the control over women and the societies flourished because half the population was not being held down by law or culture. Women could fully contribute to society and therefore there was double the brain power at work...that is if you believe women are as smart as men..which of course I do. I think they are smarter!!!! And not jsut western women...islamic women as well. But the culture/sharia holds them back so they can't express the fullest of their abilities and the societies suffer for it. It is a shame.
Just to be clear...I am talking in generalties...so don't think I mean every muslim woman on the planet.
One thing I don't like about arguing with fundamentalists of any religion is that they assert they love and stand for freedom and justice but it turns out that those terms have been perverted, in a sneaky way.
ReplyDeleteIt's kind of '1984'. Freedom means subservience - to religious law. Justice means inequality and control - according to religious law. They say they believe in freedom and justice but what them mean by that is a perversion.
@sweetlikechocolate exemplifies this when she argues for inequality under the law - specifically when she defends this: Qur'an (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women."
I'm sorry but equality before the law is a fundamental HUMAN right and if you don't believe that, you don't belong in any western democracy.
You say your are not a threat to western values but it's not true. You intend to undermine the precious values of freedom and justice with religion.
This is one reason it is possible that western countries will need to slam the door on Muslim immigrants. Our definitions of freedom and justice are too incompatible.
Assimilate, period. Or go home.
sweet with chocolate is clearly drunk on her own chocolate. Down with the veil. It is inacceptable. Just like I would be freaked out by any one in a ski mask, I am freaked out by folks in veils. Just like I think it is absolutely a societal good to tell women they cannot walk around town topless, regardless if it is their personal choice and their body, I think it is a societal good to tell folks to show their faces.
ReplyDeleteI am so so so sick of middle eastern, conservative muslim hipocracy. you want your own rules, stay at home and don't bother the rest of us! It's not about democracy, it's about culture. Guess what? you aren't the only ones with cultures you want and deserve to preserve.
sweet with chocolate is clearly drunk on her own chocolate. Down with the veil. It is inacceptable. Just like I would be freaked out by any one in a ski mask, I am freaked out by folks in veils. Just like I think it is absolutely a societal good to tell women they cannot walk around town topless, regardless if it is their personal choice and their body, I think it is a societal good to tell folks to show their faces.
ReplyDeleteI am so so so sick of middle eastern, conservative muslim hipocracy. you want your own rules, stay at home and don't bother the rest of us! It's not about democracy, it's about culture. Guess what? you aren't the only ones with cultures you want and deserve to preserve.
oby:
ReplyDeletei dont know if people in Egypt would be annoyed, there are many Christians in Egypt, feel free to dress like them to prove your point.
I dont think the Egyptian govt has a right to be annoyed. I cheered when the Taghut Hosni was brought down. He was a tyrant and he killed many of his own people.
i do not think the Muslim world is ideal, i dont think the leaders are the best either. Im not the one with the double standard, wanting a free democratic society only based on MY line of thinking. You fail to realise many muslims are not tied to the Islamic world and lived in the West at citizens. Do you think every RC has to want what the vatican wants. Or every Hindu in the West has to be tied to India. etc etc???
polygamy- are people allowed to have as many sexual partners without being tied down to marriage? is it allowed in the West for a man, out of marriage to have a one night stand one night with one woman, and the next night another two women. Is that illegal. Is he thought of as a horrible man? what about a woman. Is it ok for her to sleep with 3 different men in a 24hr period?
and i meant religiously, like in the Bible, Torah....
You didnt anser on the maternity law. And when America finally is able to accept a female president we will talk about women being considered totally equal :p
@ anonymous
ReplyDeletebecause i dont agree with you i undermine freedom? ROFL. Because i have my own opinions? LoL. Ever thought there is a way different to YOURS. I have different opinions sure, but Id never be as close minded as you.
What will you do about the muslims in the West who are born and bred in the West? hmm? chuck them out and discriminate against them because of their religion? Then you are no better than the muslim world you speak against. Infact, that kind of thought reminds me of Nazi Germany....Pretty much how it started against the Jews.
You say go home. Go home WHERE? where is your home? America? Unless you are native Indian, YOU ARE A MIGRANT JUST LIKE ANYONE ELSE.
@ Anonymous who said im drunk on my chocolate. If you had read anything i said, youd have realised im not Arab, not Middle Eastern of anysort and the veil isnt CULTURAL, islam is a religion not a CULTURE. Who says in the West every woman should wear the veil? In the Quran it is only prescribed for Muslim women in anycase. The point is, freedom for all isnt it? Isnt that what youre arguing about? Freedom? So should your opinions be forced on others who disagree? Or should you be able to wear what you want and they be able to wear also? that way you can also keep your culture. If you wanna keep American culture isnt it really Native culture?
Not having fully made up my mind on this hot topic, I was hoping to find some serious food for thought here. While most of the views expressed on both sides of this complex issue (video debate and comments)are interesting, some very, for the most part they are subjective and culture based, a few are even fear-based. There is clearly a need for social research so we (individuals and governments alike) can engage in evidence-based decision-making. Judging only from the quotes by Sarkozy I hear here, the French passed its laws without looking at facts. It seems to me that too many so-called democratic governments around the globe are enacting laws that are fear, faith and/or partisan views based. And, while recognizing that no rights are absolute and must be clearly defined, this failure to act rationally (evidence-based) ultimately does not serve well the rights of their constituents: majorities, minorities and individuals.
ReplyDeleteInteresting article:
ReplyDeletehttp://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20110418/cm_csm/377614
Sure women get harassed in Muslim countries and is dispicable. But also...:
'In two of the only studies conducted in the United States, 100 percent of women in both Indianapolis and the California Bay Area said they had faced street harassment.'
who was speaking about the female harassment in the uptight Muslim world like it didnt exist in the Free West...?
As if Muslim men don't have mistresses in addition to their wife(wives). LOL!!! And then there's the little bit about 24 hour marriages in an attempt to put a pretty name to having an affair. Oh well, as long as it doesn't affect me which it doesn't.
ReplyDeleteThe harassment in Egypt involves being groped, sometimes by more than one man at once. Terrifying! I have never been groped in an American city. I've been whistled at. Big difference.
ReplyDeleteSweetlikechocolate, you don't do your cause any favors by minimizing horrible behavior.
"because i dont agree with you i undermine freedom? ROFL. Because i have my own opinions? LoL. Ever thought there is a way different to YOURS. I have different opinions sure, but Id never be as close minded as you. "
ReplyDeleteYou are supporting inequality under the law because of religion. Fine: go to a country where that is how government is organized. E.g. Saudi. You will not get that in the west. You will only arouse hostility from the citizens who value democracy and the rule of law.
This is the system we have fought for and evolved over centuries. Women have fought for their rights under this system. It is a system of EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW.
You are doing the sneaky thing of changing the definitions of words again. I have challenged you about supporting inequality under the law - but you can't deal with that. You are too rigid and caught up in the rigid formula of fundamentalist thinking. So you say I should be 'open minded'.
Deal with it: your religious laws conflict with the laws of the west. Where do you stand?
I am open minded: feel free to impose your religious laws in another country. Your system is a religious system and it belongs in a country run by religious law. NOT my country.
@ wendy-the yes indeed some do both men and women, im not going to defend them.
ReplyDeleteand the 24hr marriages (Britney style ey?) are called 'mutah' marriages, done by the deviant shias. Not allowed in Islam at all.
Also a way they use for prostitution. Wont defend that either. Wrong is wrong.
sweetlikechocolate...
ReplyDeletePart 1.
I have no idea about the laws in the usa for maternity and I can't find your question to see what you were asking so please repose the question again.
I am not here to make fun or light of your obvious frustration. However if you look at the law it is being handled fairly and applied with equality.
According to the French law:
" it seems that large crosses, full hijabs or yarmulkes would be banned, while small symbols such as small Stars of David or crosses in pendants would not be"
The French say that NO ostentatious religious article can be worn...notice the point above about LARGE crosses...not only muslim but ALL. That would include Christians and Jews...why don't we hear them jumping up and down and complaining? Is it because muslims always want special dispensations and aren't willing to live by the laws set before them? If it is good for the Chrisitian and Jew it is good for the muslim. You cannot be MORE equal than any other. You cannot have preferential treatment above all others. You are part of the society you must live by the rules like everyone else. I am sure there are some Jews that are pretty pissed off about the yarmulke thing. And I know of a woman who was told to remove her cross even when she insisted about it being a required part of her faith. She complied.
As for veil being compulsory and required...perhaps in your sect of islam it is thought so but there is no consensus in the islamic world that says the veil is required...in fact many islamic scholars say it is not...of course you can get many articles saying the opposite I am sure. Some scholars believe the hadith it was based on is a weak hadith at best. So even in the islamic world there is a huge question as to whether it is required or not. For YOU and your sect it is required perhaps but that doesn't mean it is for all muslims and then if that is the case how required is it really? It is not universally accepted as the Prophet Mohamed is to be muslim.
And for the West being based on my idea of freedom...nope it surely isn't...there are plenty of things that I find obnoxious that are allowed in the USA...so it isn't my idea of what is right and wrong but I follow the rules like anyone else.
But for a few:
I can't smoke where I like
I can't walk down the street naked if I want
I can't forbid anyone to carry handguns
I can't walk around in a stripper costume anywhere I like(would get arrested for indecent exposure)
Can't do drugs if I want..technically illegal
Can't drink alcohol if I am under 18 an in some states 21.
Can't put a religious symbol on a public building.
Can't marry more than one person at a time...
If I worshiped the sun goddess I couldn't carry around a flaming torch with me wherever I went.(OK I threw that one in there to lighten the mood)
There are many many things that are not allowed and in France I might not be able to wear my BIG honking cross that I might be able to wear in Egypt...how's that for irony? But if I were in France would I gripe about it or would I just live by the rules? I would live. If I couldn't wear the cross in Egypt because it would be culturally obnoxious would I complain and agitate against the country or would I live with the rules? I would live with the rules.
Part 2.
ReplyDeleteNazi Germany is a bit of an over statement I think...they haven't said you can't worship or build mosques, or wear long robes, or wear hijab or not celebrate your festivals or prevent you from working or mixing with the local nonmuslims, or keep you out of any area nonmuslims can go, or keep your kids from attending islamic schools if you like, or prevent you from going anywhere or doing anything that you like....you are absolutely free. They have said they don't want face veil...the same as they have said to me they don't want big noticeable crosses or to the Jewish person they don't want yarmulkes...how is it you are being treated any differently than any other religious group about your overt sign of your faith?
To call it Nazi Germany would mean that they have persecuted specifically the Muslims...which as I said I don't see as it applies to all..and then rounded you up into ghettos and deprived you of all of your freedoms...actually that description sounds a lot more like countries in the Middle East.
As for men and women having one night stands...no it isn't illegal but it is immoral and gross IMO...and for whatever reason the Islamic world is CONVINCED that every woman in the west is whore and every man fathers kids and leaves...not sure why but it is not the majority...but I am sure that will not disuade many people.
typical - every time anything islam comes up, there polygamy followed by mistress keeping western men :-)
ReplyDeletemy thoughts on the veil, let them wear what they want, iif security is an issue have then show their face.. if they don't want to guess they can stay at home !!!
As for KSA/ france or anywhere else their law trumps all..so if you want to move to a place check out their laws & plan on following them. if i want toplace the koran above all else i would live where that is possible.. not move to europe or us or canada & ask them to change their laws or worse break them-- why is this so hard to do?
I don't think anyone would deny that females get harassed in the West. But the fact that they also get harassed in the muslim countries where females completely cover, shows that covering females does not prevent harassment.
ReplyDeleteI have been harassed by men since I was 14 years old, in school, on the street, in the workplace, in bars, etc. I have also been the victim of rape. However I still don't think that this is a reason to cover females up and hide them away. I think we need to concentrate on getting men to respect women. I certainly never changed the way I dressed or behaved, as my freedom to do exactly what I want is the most important thing to me. I couldn't imagine life without feeling the sun on my skin. I do feel sad for muslim females who can't experience that.
What I don't really understand about muslim females having to cover up is that sometimes they say it is to stop them getting harassed and raped by men. If this is a reason why do they have to cover when they are with their husband? Why can't a muslim woman relax the rules if she is next to her husband, no one will be hassling her if she is with him, no man with an ounce of respect would ogle a woman with her husband. Im always pleased to walk around with a handsome man on my arm, I like other females admiring him, it makes me proud. I can't imagine wanting him to put a bag over his head so they couldn't look.
@ anon
ReplyDeleteYou are supporting inequality under the law because of religion
you still havent answered me what the maternity laws are in your country. Do men AND women get maternity paternity leave of 6 months + or only the women. Is it EQUAL or JUST (by just i mean only the mother gets the months leave)
I dont want to impose my laws on you (Its America that went into Afghanistan/Iraq to try and force their laws onto the people there ;) ) but neither do i think you should get into another womans wardrobe.
@ oby
ReplyDeleteis a cross a religious requirement/can anyone argue it was required in the Bible or is it a symbol? From what i recall, the Virgin Mary may God be pleased with her, is always depcited as a modest covered woman.
You are going with me on the consensus of the veil being required? lol ok you so didnt want to go there. For your words to be valid you need to back that up-back it up with proof from the time of the Prophet, the companions, back that up by showing be a tafsir scholar greater than Ibn Abbas, the companion of the Prophet.
Secondly ive said and said again, there are two opinions on the veil-at the least it is recommended, the most it is obligatory. If new fangled sects come with new interpretations to suit their needs when the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him clearly gave us Islam, thats there problem. But quote from the Salaf if you want your words to hold any weight.
As for your rules-i know this is a bigggggg shot but lets just say- in your state fundamental christians take over. They say you have to revert back to dressing like them-which is women only showing their face and hands. Lets say an Amish community got a little powerful for arguments sake. Would you sit and live by the rules?
Regarding the Nazi Germany statement- all the things you wrote didnt happen in one day, it happened gradually. First it was propoganda against the Jews, making the people suspicious about them, like the media today agaisnt muslims in a way. then slowly they stripped the rights.
@ Clare
ReplyDeleteTBH the harassment in the muslim countries is something confusing.
On the one hand we have women who wear the hijab for cultural reasons, not religious and as a result their clothes are so tight, you can see 'everything'. To me, a person not wearing the hijab but dressed with looser clothes makes more sense. a pic like this will give you an idea of what i mean:
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR6LMEDzQpmJaiZkyTgeRN2fXF4i14AL_OCgl1ADK5Uu8gTBq8c&t=1
I myself love the sun (am sitting in it now-love my hair all sunned up) so i know first hand it is totally possible to cover and get still get sun.
most muslim women in the muslim world and elsewhere also do not wear the veil. but my point was, those who believe it to be a requirement or want to wear it for whatever reason should not be banned. We arent harming anyone by wearing it, there are criminals out there. a muslim woman going about her business/paying her taxes/never hurt anyone etc covered is not something to get arrested for
anonymous..
ReplyDeleteIt isn't hard to do if you think like most people do that there are things you don;t like but you live by the rules anyway because in a multicultural society you can't please everyone...if you have a persecution complex and think everyone is out to get your faith then you would have a problem with it. I would love to know how many Chrisitians and Jews are protesting the loss of their religious articles and there are many more of them in France...certainly Christians.
chocolate....
ReplyDeleteLet me ask this question...islamically your husband (if and when you have one)can marry 4 women. Do you think that is right to do in a country without laws providing for that? If you live in France or any other country where polygamy is not allowed should he be allowed to marry four women? Of course, we know the first is the real marriage and the other three are "spiritual" marriages.
I am wondering if it bothers you that you are not allowed to do that? If not why not? And if you are willing to live by French law for marriage even though it is contrary to your religious beliefs why not live with the veil ruling?
And if you don't think you should live by the ruling of one husband one wife in society why not? Do you think your islamic rights override French law? Why should they?
Also I think everyone is savvy enough to realize that Muslims do live in polygamous relationships everyday in the west...the marriages aren't legal rather spiritual but they live as if it were legal. They take place islamically. It is breaking the law or the intention of the law which is one man one woman.
I have always had very mixed feelings about the veil. In India we have some Islamic women's groups saying that wearing a veil is a reflection of their cultural identity.. I dont know whether a culture that requires women to cover their faces is relevant in today's times. But sure if women do it out of their free will then it is ok. Whatever I have read about Saudi Arabia or heard about it is based on what a person of another nationality has written or narrated. So I guess it is coloured by their opinion. I dont think we will ever hear a Saudi woman speak freely about what she thinks. There are probably too many risks involved for her to do so.
ReplyDeleteIt's all about control. People who are controlled want/need to take control of something to make them feel better as it is not pleasant being 'controlled' no matter how one looks at it or denies it's happening.
ReplyDeleteHelene: My comment was directly directed at your quote "To all those women who choose the veil: how about then also choosing to live in Saudi Arabia?"
ReplyDeleteWhy would we want to live in a country that FORCES us? Hmmm? And not every woman who WANTS to go to Saudi, can. Not every woman has means to work there, or a marriage, ect. I likened the way you said that to the same ignorance as someone saying to women under the Taliban why don't they just move to USA or France. LOL, like it's soooooooo easy.
You miss the point. The veil in the religion at least, is a woman's choice. I agree about women standing up against the cultural dictates of it, but we also choose the religion.
You got upset over the word submission because you don't understand it. It is us believing that if a child dies it is because God decided for the child to go to heaven. It is us believing that we wear a cover on our heads (that I've come to love not just for the sake of the religion) to remember a sheild against evil actions and to be recognized easily for our belief OF everything being God's will. How is that somehow worse than a Budhist believe peace is in nothing? I find that way more scary a thought. Anyways, I just don't like people telling me to move to Saudi Arabia just because I like the veil. I don't belong there unless you want me to get killed for fighting the injustice in their system, so some wronged writer out there who misunderstands Islam can say "Islamists" killed me.
I am sorry my writing style isn't terribly clear. But yours was clearly ignorant of what Muslim women go through, those who choose not to veil but their country dictates their covering, and those who do but are born where it is not the norm.
Any Muslim woman who says her hijab be it niqab or abaya or headscarf is to keep her from being raped or ogled it is not. (jilbab, modest clothing that can be an abaya): It is for her to be recognized as a Muslim woman. Headscarf: to be recognized as a muslim woman. I.e we were meant to dress modestly AND in a way different from Christian and Jewish women. Niqab: because the Qu'ran said it is purer for the heart (this left a choice in it).
ReplyDeleteRape rates are less in the middeleast because they go unreported. This is a fact from someone who lives in the GCC. THE THINGS I've seen and heard...
But my hijab : jilbab, khimar, and niqab, they are for religious purposes.
The commentator who said nuns are part of a religious order so their hijab should be looked at as a choice, Islam is a religion where you make an oath every day that you choose to say your five prayers, and say la illah il allah, muhhummad abdul rasoolulah. If you choose to say those words when you are of the age that you may do so without compulsion, from then on you are a member of the religious ummah by your own choice in the declaration. Your freedom was to declare it. To believe it. I as a Muslim woman (who was never rejected by men before Islam, who had a great career, and no apparent social vices, so I hate people saying I was brainwashed and coverted for some stupid reason cuz I did not) I think of myself LIKE a nun, or a Jewish woman who wears her wig or headcovering, only unlike nuns, I have the right to marry, own property, vote (Saudi is not an Islamic government), and unlike traditional Jewish women, be a religious authority or teacher.
Women who are not Muslim women need to stop saying what is best for us. But you should indeed support your Saudi sisters when they ask for your help in getting the vote, and to drive, because THEY THEMSELVES ASKED FOR IT so obviously they can better tell you their needs. And the freedom on women to choose what they want to wear, bikini or burka, in France, or KSA.
salam
ReplyDeletemaybe people fear what seems alien to them. will it work, if niqabis be more visible, friendlier so that society could know them. & see that they're not enslaved, a threat etc? so that when we see a niqabi, we can expect a cheerful his & hellos & maybe some pretty cool jokes.
anyway, i find the association of niqab with overall enslavement of women unfair. also, Princess Ameera is modern in Saudi, so how did that happen?
I just don't understand the need for niqab or why these women are so intent on wearing it. It seems to be acknowledged by the majority of muslims that it is not required in the Quran, it is not worn to avoid harassment and it is not needed to identify you as muslims, as the hijab already does that. The only reason I can think of for wearing it is that men are forcing you to do so. If the niqab is banned maybe you could find a plastic surgeon to remove your face, just leaving small holes to eat, see and breathe. That should make you unattractive enough to please your men and it should dehumanize you enough so people are not tempted to communicate with you.
ReplyDeletePerhaps this could be done to all female muslims at birth, along with some procedure to stop any hair growing on your head, just in case the hijab gets banned. After all God/Allah obviously make a mistake by giving females hair and faces, or so muslims seem to think.
@ oby
ReplyDeleteregarding your polygamy argument. If a non muslim without marriage has 4 women and lives with them is this illegal? In the West?
Getting married islamically through a nikah is not breaking the law.In America the mormon community are allowed more than one wife are they not? By marrying 3 extra wives Islamically, a man has not broken the law, Plus i see polygamy as a sunnah, whilst niqab as a wajib.
Now would i protest about it? hmmm :p
sweetlikechocolate:
ReplyDeleteThe answer to your question
"In America the mormon community are allowed more than one wife are they not?"
is simple. No, Morman adult males are not "allowed" more than 1 wife.
I'm really enjoying this discussion, so thanks to all the commenters.
ReplyDeleteTo SweetLikeChocolate - You have asked about maternity leave and no one has addressed that issue. In 2006, the US passed a Family Leave bill called the Work and Families Act, which basically extended the original legislation of 2003 in regards to paid leave for family matters. There are of course stipulations and various conditions, but the best explanation I found for it is here:
http://exclusive-executive-resumes.com/career-workplace/men-on-paternity-leave/
As a Native American female living in the U.S.A. in my suburban home with my name on the property title; with three teenage boys who follow my instructions and my lead; one husband who respects my non-theologically influenced, independently formed opinions and had better not even THINK about disrespecting me OR ELSE; a dog that follows my every command; the person with the largest closet in the house; a director's job that allows me the privilege of working with people with genetically-based intellectual disabilities; and the common-sense to know that I, viewed and supported as a citizen first, female second, need to abide by the laws of my country or welcome the prosecution that results because of a misguided belief that my individual needs are somehow more important that the collective body in the U.S., know that I can -without a shred of doubt because I have over two decades of guiding employees in human resource issues like the very ones that you question- answer you in this manner: FMLA laws (and your “maternity laws” topic falls under this umbrella formally called the Family Medical Leave Act) permit any employee with enough compiled work hours, to take twelve weeks off work for the birth/adoption of a child. It could be the mother alone taking the entire 12 weeks, the father taking the entire 12 weeks, two mothers splitting the time evenly or two fathers splitting the time off in any ratio that they choose.
ReplyDeletePart 1...
ReplyDeleteChocolate...
Some would say the cross is a symbol, some say it is required...it is not required in the bible...but neither is veiling in the quran. YOU say it, the SALAF say it, but there are millions upon millions of muslims all over the world who would disagree with you and many scholars as well. So your argument ultimately is exactly what I said...that in your SECT it might be required...in your way of following islam you may find it required but it is not required by the entire msulim faith...if it were than the majority of muslim women in the world are not following what they are supposed to be doing according to you and your salafi interpretation. And that is exactly what it is...an interpretation.
as for the amish or fundamentalist forcing their dress code on me...no I wouldn't accept it BECAUSE this is a secular country that forces no faith on anyone. In the case of France they are even more secular then the USA so they aren't forcing a faith on you. Just the opposite. They are requiring people NOT to show overt signs of their faith in line with their interpretation of their laws...all faiths not just Muslims.
Now lets go back to an argument you made earlier about Saudi Arabia and wearing abaya...you said it is the law of the land and so people need to follow that law precisely because it is NOT a secular country and precisely because they DO run the country on faith. I gave you points for that one. It was a fair argument. But here you have the same thing just in the reverse...a secular country that wants NO signs of religiosity in public and it is the law. How come it is OK for Saudi Arabia and NOT OK for France? If you accept the argument for KSA then to be fair and non hypocritical you must accept the argument(in reverse) for France...You were willing to see me forced to wear an abaya in KSA even though I am not a Muslim because it is the law. And I said clearly that I would because I would follow their laws. If you are an honest person you would apply the same logic to the situation in France.
ALL faiths are required by french law to not show their faith in public. A yarmulke(Jewish skullcap) IS a requirement in some Jewish sects...as much as you say your niqab is. So I ask again, HOW are you being discriminated against? According to some Christians wearing a cross is a requirement of their faith. But like the salafi, the christian who thinks it is a requirement would be INTERPRETING it as required...the same as you feel about your niqab...HOW are you being discriminated against anymore than they are?
Yes it IS illegal for a man to "marry" more than one woman at a time. Of course people are immoral and break the law but if they are found out...they will be visiting the local judge...mormans , muslims or anyone else it is illegal.
Can a man live with four women? a man living with four nonmuslim/nonmormon women in the same place WITH THE INTENTION OF HAVING SEX/CHILDREN would be nearly impossible to find in the west. It is exceedingly rare to the point that I would almost say unheard of...First, he would be looked at by police most likely as possibly running a brothel or house of prostitution because it is so rare and would look very fishy. Secondly, it would be next to impossible to find 4 nonmuslim women who would agree to be a part of an arrangement like that. I can tell you it just would not happen. It cannot happen without the consent of the women and unless they have been brainwashed by some religious cult as being "for the glory of god" or some nonsense you won't find four women willing to share their "husband"..and DEFINATELY not under one roof. At a minimum he would have to hide it. Just not going to happen except in VERY RARE cases. IF a cult does have such a living arrangement and the police know about it...they will arrest the man and maybe the women and any children that are in the cult will be taken out of that situation...it is ILLEGAL. Plain and simple.
part 2...
ReplyDeleteIt is the INTENT that counts. If you were the second, third or fourth wife and married islamically but not legally you would consider yourself married would you not? You wouldn't see yourself as some kind of girlfriend or mistress, right? So in your INTENT you are married. Living as a married woman and therefore you are breaking the law.
If a person gets caught with drugs if it is enough in content the police can arrest the person for INTENT to sell. They haven't sold it yet, but the intent is there or can be assumed to be there.
The same with an "islamic" marriage. It is your intent to be married to a man that already has one legal wife. Therefore with your intent you are breaking the law which in my book makes you dishonest unless of course you lived in a polygamous society.
The prophet said that when muslims live in nonmuslim lands they should follow the law of the land in which they live. That would mean NO POLYGAMY in a country where it is illegal. Muslims expect nonmuslims to live under muslim laws when they go to Muslim lands (take your pick)which in my book is fair enough. I think everyone should live by the law of whatever country they live in.
But the fact that you would twist the law to suit your purposes and live illegally says to me that once again it is an example of how a Muslim is not willing to live by the rules and wants them to be changed or an exception to be made for them. YET...they would not be willing to give nonmuslims that right in their country. It is once again a double standard. No one is asking you to have LESS rights than anyone else. They are saying "live by the laws of this country" and have the same amount of rights.
And as horrible as it might sound in the eyes of the law if you are not legally married to your husband you are viewed as nothing more than a mistress with absolutely NO marital rights at all. You have NO protections. If something happens the man owes you nothing...absolutely nothing.
And if something happens to you and your "spouse" and he leaves you and your children or vice versa are you able to work? Probably not. What sort of work can a niqabi do outside the home? So the choice then is work from home, have your family support you or you would need to go on public assistance as a "single mother". Please don't say it doesn't happen. Of course it does. With Muslims and mormans too.
If you are legally married you have the full protection of the law on your side.
sweetlikechocolate said... ”The Western woman is only enjoying these rights as of what? 100 years? Dont pretend that the West doesnt have discrimination of any sort.”
ReplyDeleteSorry, at NO TIME has the Western woman every been as subjugated and enslaved as the Muslim woman—even when women were chattel and not allowed to vote. They always worked beside their men, since the days of the cave men. Women always were in mixed society, even if they had chaperones. No one stopped women from walking about unveiled. No one imprisoned women in their houses as do Muslims.
If fact, there is a famous quote of astonishment by the first Muslims in medieval Europe as they saw women walking about the streets amongst men, unveiled and FREE.
”Youre telling me to stop forcing my laws on the rest of the world, how about you stop forcing your opinions on others? Am i saying i want YOU to wear niqab? NO. im saying it should be a womans RIGHT especially in a so called free country. NOT freedom for all EXCEPT muslim women. ITS OPPRESSION TO BAN US”
Lady, as long as Muslims demand that the world acquiesce to their backward, 7th century allah laws, then I and every free person will continue to tell you that we are against that, voicing our opinion whether you and your brethren like it or not.
It is sheer BULL to claim that not permitting women to be second class citizens in nonMuslim nations is OPPRESSION. If you do not like Western laws then STAY OUT of the West. Go to China sometime and see how they would love your idea of “oppression.” The Chinese do not take religious extremism lightly. The more you people make unreasonable, undemocratic, Islamic demands the more of a backlash there will be.
And yes, you are brainwashed and must also be really ignorant. Many women ALL OVER THE PLANET like looking beautiful and showing off their person in front of the world. It is not only in the West that women dress in form-fitting, beautiful clothing. You should get out once in a while and travel to see the costumes of other peoples and how sexy they are. BTW—I am all for veiling certain women. I only want the good looking ones to walk about in revealing clothes. ;)
The Arabs are some of the most show-offish, class conscious people who ever lived. They buy Western designer goods by the planeload just to show off and play one-ups-manship against their sisters in Islam. Putting an ugly black sack over those clothes is sheer idiocy! Those bells on the ankles and clouds of perfume are not exactly Muslim modesty. You bet the Arabs have “long eyes.” No Western man has ever disrespected women as has a Muslim, who just will not take “No!” for an answer. Most Westerners are decent and many gentlemen. Most Muslims behave like barbaric-savages when it comes to women. Over 98% of Egyptian women report having been harassed. It is now worse than ever, since the so-called revolution. The rape statistics in the Islamic world are extreme, and they are not even accurate because most women do not dare to report, since rape is ALWAYS the fault of the woman. Over 70% of the women in prison in Pakistan are there because they were raped. Where else do women get murdered by their families for “honor”?
_____________
Continued
Continued to Sweet Like Chocolate
ReplyDeleteBTW—sweet chocolate is a Western invention. Better get another handle. ;)
Nazi Germany? Who is rounding up Muslims for extermination, taking their property, stopping them from worshiping their allah?
Do remember that many Arabs were allies of the Nazis and were all for exterminating the Jews. Shall we post the hadith about rocks and trees shouting: "Oh, Muslim there is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and KILL him!” That is supposedly what Muslims must do on the Last Day in order to get into Paradise. A Paradise, which, appears to be a celestial brothel what with 72 virgins, rivers like wine and servant boys like pearls. Do you suppose the virgins are veiled? ;)
Everyone living in any nation must obey the laws of that country, even those natural born citizens. If a nonMuslim proselytizes in Saudi Arabia the punishment is DEATH! If a born-in-the-West person breaks the law they will be arrested and punished.
Muslim converts who believe that their Allah’s law is above mere man-made law should go to an Islamic land and live there!
Muslims can practice their religion in the West more freely than any other place, especially any Muslim country. They simply cannot do anything that smacks of inequality, such as putting their women into a black sack and forcing them into inequality with sharia law.
What is it about inequality and security issues that you do not understand? Have there not been enough Muslim suicide bombers dressed as women? Have there not been enough “honor” killings and forced marriages? Are there not enough hymen repairs done to “restore” Muslima virginity?
You talk about one-night stands in the West. FYI, those happen all over the world, INCLUDING the Muslim world, only there they are called misyar or muttah
“marriage.” In the rest of the world that is called prostitution since the “bridegroom” pays for the bride. There have been many, many articles on Muslim men having dozens of wives—four at a time—and hundreds of children whom they cannot feed or educated. How grand! Why is this better than anyplace else on the planet?
Regarding equality with respect to paternity. Yes, in many nations men get as much time off for “maternity” leave as do women. In the US it comes under the family emergency act. In the US more women have careers than anywhere else. Statistics show that all women under 30 now earn more than their men. You are putting forth irrelevant, non-sequitors.
Regarding supporting women. That is a whole lot of nonsense as well. People who live on less than $2.- a day cannot do much supporting. Most Muslims are illiterate and DIRT POOR! Most Islamic nations cannot feed their own people, especially the Arab states. They get everything that they need from the infidels. Often women who are divorced get nothing and have to resort to prostitution since they are not permitted to work.
People, Muslims included, are not flocking to the Islamic world to immigrate, while they are flocking to the West. If Muslims object to Western customs and laws then let them stay in their miserable lands where there is no justice for either men or women.
You can talk until you are blue in the face, but the genie is out of the bottle. Westerners and nonWesterners alike see what Muslims fantasize about a caliphate and ruling the world with their 7th century religion. Unfortunately, for you, MOST people on the planet want democracy and capitalism not religious fascism such as Iran, Afghanistan or certain Gulf states enjoy. Not too many people are looking forward to secular warfare and suicide bombings in the name of religion.
What sort of a god it is that wants to stick half of his creations into a black-sack and deny them equality, use them like cattle to breed and for the pleasures of the other half of his creations?
Show us where in the Qur’an it states anything about niqab? Do not forget that the Qur’an, ahadith as well as sunnah were all written down by MEN, Muslim, mere mortal men who wanted to subjugate women.
One nil to Marianne I think. I wish I could form an argument in such a brilliant way, truly awesome.
ReplyDelete@ Marianne kudos I agree with you
ReplyDelete@ sweetchocolate sorry to break your bubble but mormons CAN't have more than one wife...in the US bigamy is against the law...yes there is a tiny sect of mormoms that still allows polugamy but for the US law those mmultiple marriage are against the law and their wives doesn't get the benefit the first wife can receive. these sects don't almost have contact with the mainstream mormons and their children are poor educated and their daughters are taught from day one that they are inferior compared to men...
In any non muslim countries the CIVIL law is far more important compared to the religious one.
I still think that whoever wears the nijab is forced in some way...converts will say say that they aren't brainwashed in wearing it but when one is brainwashed doesn't realize it
@ Helene
ReplyDeleteWe know they practice it though, is it just ignored by the government when they do? Im sure we've all atleast taken a peep at sister wives :P
At Susie, thanks for the link. I know in the UK its 2 weeks for the man just like the article you gave me (although in the article more is allowed under circumstances.) I think thats pretty fair, but its not equal. My point to the person i asked was in some cases, you dont need equality you need justness.
@ oby
ReplyDeletedid you read the verse in Surah 33 like i asked you. My point about the Salaf was- the issue on the veil has only come around NOW. If it was always a debate then the SALAF would have many discussions about it, you can find many disputes discussed at length by them, books upon books, so since YOU are the one saying it isnt a religious requirement-prove it. but dont prove it through someone whos only recently written a book about it, prove it through the Quran and Sunnah, prove it from the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him, prove it from his companions. Show me a different interpretation from them. Thats all i ask.
As for the amish argument-if they came in in your state it would have been because they were voted in. If someone is forcng their faith on you-yes that is oppression. But if someone is forcing you away from your faith is that not oppression just the same? For example, in Turkey muslim women wearing the headscarf were not allowed to go to do much at all. The super secular government didnt want the headscarf-a sign of faith. Was persecuting those women wearing the headscarf not oppression? Was forcing them to take it off not oppression?
now about Saudi Vs France. Does France believe in freedom of speech/religion/expression despite being secular? If so, then is it only limited to what suits the govt? Then that isnt really freedom is it? So France is just like Saudi Arabia then..?
TBH if you went to live in Saudi youd probably be living this kinda life:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwd8esu-S3c
which is basically a mini west in Saudi Arabia just for the Westerners. Which brings up a whole other topic :p
Seriously speak though, I think it would be for your own safety, law or no law that you wore atleast an abaya there. Depending on where you go also matters, for example Jeddah although youll need an abaya in most places, is more relaxed that lets say Riyadh. Having said that, I have seen many pilgrims in the country without an abaya facing no trouble at all. And yes in and around both of the Hoy Masjids there are MANY religious police both male and female.
and i atleast agree with you about a man living with more than one woman under one roof. There are strict guidelines for polygamy in ISlam, unfortunately not everyone follows it, but one of them is each wife should have her own living arrangements. and yes i agree with you that you wont find many men living with more than one woman BUT you mentioned sex, so yes you will find men sleeping with more than one woman in the space of a week in the same house. Sure hes not living with any of them, but still had sex and children are possible through one night stands. Islamically you cant play the field as is allowed in the West. The solution is marriage-no sex before marriage. So its not like Western men are devoted to one woman all their life, they sleep around do they not? Isnt free love legal in the US? So sure it may not be the norm for a man to publicly declare and be devoted and treat more than one woman fairly, but its not like its not done...
ooooh this actually reminds me of an article i read the other day on no other than Hugh Heffner (sp?) Hes getting married to one of his girls + he has 2 twins. 3 women in all? :p though i guess thats a whole other topic on gold-diggers and porn *rolleyes*
To Sweetlikechocolate: Superstitious beliefs being followed and FORCED on women make no sense. Organized religion brainwashes people into bizarre behavior by using fear of punishment or the threat that they will be punished in some afterlife. Islam punishes their own people for not following bizarre dressing commands that have little to do with real spirituality but are part of a Theocratic Political Ideology being forced on people and spreading like a cancer. Extremists are attacking non-muslims and even other muslims for not following MAN-MADE laws by those in powerful positions who claim it's the will of their diety. In reality, the people making up these rules are just men who use the name of their deity to enforce their will on the rest of the people to control them. It is a sickness that needs to be stopped.
ReplyDeleteNow about the intent- if i intended to kill someone but i didnt would i be tried for murder?
ReplyDeletea person in possession of drugs has already broken the law.
Now tell me, when a man has a threesome with 2 women, what is his intent?
Also one another topic, when a man and womans marriage has broken down, and both are now living 'separate lives' and dating others-though they arent divorced-and this done happen-then whats the intent there? A man is legally married to one woman yet in a full time relationship with another?
As for the working issue- i work 5 days a week, im currently in the UK which has a horrible benefit system, a system where young teenagers get pregnant as an occupation because the government gives free housing and benefits, where the govt pays teenagers to go to college. There are many British men and women of all religions not working because, frankly speaking they make more money that way. (plus no taxes to pay, free medical, free meals for their children in school-thats just a few of the things)
But there are many single mothers in the West, not getting anything from the fathers-so what was your point? Not everyone marries...
Which brings me back to the law of inheritence in Islam. All male guardians are required to support their women just as a husband would. If the husband isnt around, then the father, brothers, uncles etc Islamically should step up and be there if the woman needs it.
The Grand Mosque of Paris
ReplyDelete"During the Nazi occupation of France, Jews were being rounded up and sent to concentration camps. One avenue of refuge was the Grand Mosque in Paris, where Jewish adults and children hid, some briefly until they could be spirited away, others for longer stays."
Only Allah Knows Best والله أعلم
Marianne
ReplyDeleteMuslim women are more than allowed to work- Do you know who the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him worked for as a youth? A WOMAN who later proposed to him and he married. Khadija may Allah be pleased with her.
Do you know who one of the most forefront scholars of Islam was? The Prophets pbuh's companions used to go to her for rulings after his passing away. His wife Aisha may Allah be pleased with her.
What makes you think youre free by forcing your opinion on me? You speak of freedom, yet it is only freedom based on your train of thought.
If you want to talk about second class citizens, talk about how women are sexualised-the immense pressure on women to dress to please, the fact the billboards use women to sell their products-that is second class. Whether you understand my choice in veiling or not, it doesnt give you the right to ASSUME im treated as second class.
and ypu, just as you mentioned China to me, you should also go there and demand your freedom. They would love your idea of freedom, they dont take that lightly either.
you think muslim women who cover dont like revealing clothes? You may find that under the abayas are the most revealing clothes.. ;) You are the ignorant one for thinking otherwise.
Your talk of muslim men is just as ignorant as the rest of your words. You tell me I should travel, yet you are the one who needs to get out of America and see how you have grossly generalized
As for rape-what was the statistic in US, a free country? One woman raped every 3 seconds. what about domestic violence? You speak as if this doesnt exist in a free world!
as for honour killings-ill stand with you on that. there is no place for it in islam and it is cultural stupidity.
Nazi Germany- The muslims kindly allowed the oppressed jews into Palestine....
and answer, did the discrmination of jews start suddenly or did it gradually grow?
What is the Christian view on the Messiah coming? Why not quote that part Marianne?
What is your view on paradise? A place where theres just cobwebs?
And what about Christian men who believe Gods law above man made law in the West? Are they allowed to have their own communities as is the case or you gonna send them somewhere too?
About rights in the West Vs rights in a muslim country, to an extent i again actually agree with you.
mutah marriages are a shia practice and totally out of islam. Anyone known practicing this are actually breaking the law. this type of marriage is common and allowed in iran but then im not a fan of iran so aint gonna defend them.
again, forced marriages, hymen repairs etc are actually not allowed and spoken against by Islamic scholars. You crossed the line between religion and culture, i wont defend backward cultural practices but i will defend islamic law.
if you want to talk about governments and not being able to support their people etc- then thats a whole other story of corruption, the western govts being big players in this so dont even go there.
You mention Afghanistan-that is a double standard. It was the West that invaded Afghanistan for greed- talk about forcing your opinions onto others. a whole country was destroyed, just in the name of freedom.
What sort of human law is it you follow that has women as pieces of meat there to sell everything, from their bodies to toothpaste?
Ive already mentioned where in the Quran it was mentioned, surah 33. Do not forget one of the main hadith relators was actually A WOMAN so get your facts right!
When America finally accepts a woman as president, ill accept with you that it truly views women as equal to men.
country girl
ReplyDeletethats it you THINK. but you dont know. Prove to me im forced in some way. I can be as ignorant and say youre forced to show flesh. But no, the way i see it is you have your own opinion and thats your choice but i have my own opinion too. Just because i dont agree with your opinion doesnt mean IM the one thats forced. Thats a weak argument. And again as you said, when one is brainwashed they dont realise it? I can say the same to you!
IF i didnt agree that two people can have their own opinions and neither were forced.
You thinking we are forced is pretty close minded dont you think
Oh and marianne, if you would like to continue on prisons in muslim countries etc then i would be more than happy to discuss this including abu ghuraib and GITMO, where muslims were and are held, tortured and raped without trial, treated like crap and all done by your free America in the name of freedom. Do they deserve this in your opinion? Is this equality of any sort? or because they arent American, they arent human so its ok?
ReplyDeletesweetlikechocolate:
ReplyDeleteYour next observation (about Mormon polygamy):
"We know they practice it though, is it just ignored by the government when they do? "
is right on. Government hates dealing with this issue, and avoids it until public pressure boils over, and puts everyone in a bad spot.
Everyone on "all" sides (there are more than 2) expresses themselves with very self-righteous vocabulary, and as a result, they all look pretty bad....
I've enjoyed this conversation too. But the funniest thing, that I will take with me, is a comment made by Countrygirl, which I reword here in my own style, so it's not in quotes:
ReplyDeletedid you reformat your brain when you converted?
After reading many, many blogs, of reverts over the last few years, that has become my question exactly.
@sweet chocolate --"Which brings me back to the law of inheritence in Islam. All male guardians are required to support their women just as a husband would." --
ReplyDeletereally!!! how many do ? if it's so required why no enforcing that???
In islam a man can diovorce a woman and give her back her mahr and 3 months maintainence and that's that!!! sounds fair ??
In a case where the man and woman have been married for 11 yrs , she has supported his ambition and eased his way to making money , kept home nad hearth intact so he could wander off int he promise of money .. and guess what he has another wife ( mistress ) and decided to dump the original with 3 months support... isn't it just that he split everything he made the past 11 yrs in half with 1 half going to her, since without her help and co-operation he's be screwed .. guess in islam a woman is free maid, sexpartner, cook, nanny with a 3 month layoff benefit ... wow exactly the type of women's rights we women are all looking for..
As for brotehrs and fathers supporting her, why? wouldn't empoering her be better ? whay if she has no father or brother? just dump her on random relatives welfare???
yep real fair.
islamic laws on divorce !!
@ Helene- if that was aimed at me, ive said several times im not a revert
ReplyDelete@ anonymous:
In islam a man can diovorce a woman and give her back her mahr and 3 months maintainence and that's that!!! sounds fair ??
The mahr is given to the WOMAN at marriage not the man. Further more after divorce the man and woman are strangers, if there are no kids why must the man spend the rest of his life supporting her? He isnt a MAHRAM he is a guardian. A MAHRAM is a male blood relative that one is forrbidden from marrying.
If at marriage they had an agreement of 50-50 then it works that way, if she never took any money then thats where her mahrams come in. the support of a brother/father is there IF SHE NEEDS IT. If you think that by giving women support is a problem then SO BE IT. Thats your loss.
part 1...
ReplyDeleteChocolate...
We will never agree on this issue...one reason is that in my book you are not being discriminated against anymore than anyone else. If you want to call it discrimination then EVERYONE is being equally discriminated against. No one can show religiosity outside. So for me, you don't deserve a pass. Your rights are denied like anyone else's. If it is applied to all they can't get any fairer than that. I don't see why you should be the exception to the rule.
If it were ONLY you who were being discriminated against then I might feel differently. But the other faiths are not complaining about it...they are taking it in stride...it is only muslims who are agitating about it. Why is it always Muslims who are making noise about discrimination when it happens to all faiths everywhere? Are they having issues in Egypt? Are the women up in arms about it? They should be. Or is it because a nonmuslim country made the rule and muslims have an issue with the rule coming from a nonmuslim? In this entire discourse I have continually referred to all religions. I even said I might feel different if it was just yours. You have not once said it is an unfair rule for ALL and should not apply to anyone. You keep focusing only on Muslims. That is very telling to me and is one of the reasons nonmuslims have problems with muslims. Muslims set themselves above the law...they don't feel that they should have to follow the rules like everyone else. The rules somehow don't apply to them and they don't see it as a group thing...meaning that it is a discriminatory law for all...they see it ONLY from their perspective. It is as if those who are nonmuslims don't count. "It is unfair for them...oh well...as long as it doesn't apply to me." They don't think in a way that benefits the country as a whole or the people as a whole...they think only of how it benefits muslims and if it happens to be unfair to everyone else...too bad it is for the good of islam. Now maybe you don't mean this...but that is exactly the way it is coming across. "I care for me and the fact it is not fair for others is no concern to me". This superior attitude is what bothers most nonmuslims because it is almost impossible to reason with Muslims...if it is good for Islam it doesn't matter if it is unfair to everyone else or against the culture or what have you. For example, if minarets could not be built on a mosque due to zoning laws and churches and synogogues were held to the same law for their architecture, it wouldn't matter to Muslims that that is the law and all must comply...they would agitate that they can't have minarets...never mind that the others must follow the same rule. It makes it difficult to live peacefully within the society if one group is always griping about things that all others accept and agree is fine. It causes resentment no different than if I went to say, egypt and tried to say "well, I don't think I should have to do that. I am not working on Sunday as it is my day of prayer. Your laws don't apply to me. I am not a muslim so I don't have to do it" when everyone works on Sunday. You don't think that will cause a little resentment? It surely will.
Also we know that the Quran says that unless the rules go against Sharia you should obey the laws of the land. Does it say in Sharia that you must veil? I read sura 33...
Dress Code for Women
[33:59] O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized (as righteous women) and avoid being insulted. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
I don't see anything that says cover the face....and if it doesn't say explicitly that one must do it it means it is left to the interpretation of the person, correct?
part 2...
ReplyDeleteAs to intent...if you intended to kill someone and were in the planning stages and were found out you can bet your bottom dollar that you would most likely be in jail. The sentence would not be as harsh as if you had actually killed but yes, you would be held accountable...if you are thinking about it and there is no proof well then no one can say anything. But you wouldn't be thinking about getting married you would be married and therefore have made the action already.
As for the mormons in "sister wives"... guess what? Yes, they are being investigated by the authorities. I don't know the outcome as I haven't followed it but I do know they are involved in an investigation. I asked my mother "what the hell did they expect?" Like give me a break...they didn't think it would be a problem to let the world know they are breaking the law?
As for the guy who would be having sex with more than one woman during the week at the same house...again unless he is a very busy bachelor it is very unlikely to happen. A married man will not have another home and have 3 women in one week while hiding it from his wife...can it happen? Yes it can...but VERY highly unlikely. One, the wife will question where he is all the time. Two, wives and husbands are considered equal partners so she is able to be privy to all his finanacial info if they have accounts together. Three, he would have to have a LOT of extra cash to have a separate love nest and keep three separate mistresses. Four, unless he keeps it a secret and, unless they are Muslim MOST women will not put up with that sort of behavior. I can't speak for France but I can speak for the USA.They would kick his butt to the curb and tell him to get lost...the wife would too... after taking him to court and getting every penny she can out of him and the kids too. In this situation the court is on her side. Unless he keeps it a secret it isn't likely to happen...this is where you are missing the point. In the West that type of arrangement would NOT be consensual...the man would have to be a pig and a creep. But in islam it IS consensual. It is not wrong or looked down on or thought to be a bad thing to have sex with four women. Here he would not get a pass for it. He would be thought of as a total pig. In Islam women AGREE to that. And if they don't agree what can they do about it...if you are not legally married not a darn thing! The law can't help you...HUGE difference. Here, some idiot marries four women he is going to jail for a long time. My point is NO WOMAN will knowingly put up with that crappy behavior and it isn't made halal by religious law.
But I do agree with countrygirl...that when one coverts to Islam(I know you haven't) it is as if they reformatted their brain. The same women who in preMuslim days would NEVER accept sharing her husband all of a sudden thinks it is OK. Who would never agree to marry her daughter off to someone at a very young age now sees that as a good thing. Who had lots of nonmuslim friends whom she loved and had good relations with now can't be near them even if they are good people who don't do immoral things. They are kuffar. I too have read these blogs and thought to myself how on earth do you so completely change yourself that you are now against he society in which you were raised and are not even a shadow of who you were. Incredible.
I will be going out of town for several days and will not have computer access so I will not be able to answer your response...but I have enjoyed the debate...
ReplyDelete"Further more after divorce the man and woman are strangers, if there are no kids why must the man spend the rest of his life supporting her?" ---
ReplyDeletewhat!!!!! so i spend 11 yrs in a partnership with a man, i cook,clean and work@home and he works outside, he gets compensated i do not since no man pays his wife a salary!!! so when we split, why onearth would we not split everything that was earned by us both ( him outside and me @home) equally?????
he'll support his kids but not the woman who gave him those kids :-) sweet ... and by support i don't even mean alimony i mean split everything they accumulated in the yrs they were married 50/50 .. instead like i said she gets 3 months layoff... oh yeah real fair laws..
sweetchocolate. Right now nearly every Arab country out there is arresting without cause, torturing and killing its own citizens simply because they dare to want reform. When Muslims get over this insane deep seated desire to shed each others blood so easily...than please do come back and point your finger at the Big Bad West for what we have done to those Gitmo "Muslims". Im not saying what happened to them is either fair or right but Arabs/Muslims have no moral high ground when it comes to mistreating and down right abusing each other and filling graves with bones and blood of their so called brothers and sisters in Islam. Such hypocrisy.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I was married to my Arab/Muslim man (and I couldnt use that title with less sincerity if I tried) for 20 years. 20 years I was forced to stay married to him because of the fucked up laws in "Islamic" countries that give the man full power over divorce, ownership of children (and that is what it is, ownership of the children just like he owned his wife)...and even when I discovered he was raping our daughters and forced him to divorce me...because I AM THE ONE ASKING for the divorce...I did not get a single penny from him...after 20 years of a fucked up marriage. The Sharia Court judge determined that since I was the one asking for divorce, I got nothing. he established a paltry $400 dollars for FIVE children...and that was that. My ex paid it about 6 months then stopped...I went to court to prosecute him and couldnt get the judge to care at all. I was divorced...time to take care of myself..and the 5 kids. I never got another penny from him. That was over 4 years ago.
No brothers, no father to take care of me...I had to start from nothing after 20 years of marriage to a raping pedophile muslim man who the judge STILL saw as better than me, a mere woman....and a Wesetern one at that.
Sharia courts in ALL Arab/Islamic countries dont give a shit for women, muslim or not...and generally after she is divorced..neither do the male members of her family.
Coolred 38 I get so angry when I read your story. It's a long way from the original topic of wearing the niqab in France but I guess in a way it's not that far because the question really for the French govt and people is women's rights.
ReplyDeleteYour rights and your chidren's rights count for nothing in the eyes of sharia law. We don't want this happening in France.
As a French woman I believe in human rights, I believe in women's rights.
Too bad if some women say they'd rather be slaves to men than free. There are many countries where they can live that way - not in France.
An aspect of the law that was just passed in France is that there are tough penalties also for men who force their wives or relatives to cover up. I believe this aspect of the law is ESSENTIAL. Peer pressure, family pressure count a lot in many women's "choice" to cover up today.
The law is based on the idea that in our country, no woman would gladly give up her freedom and accept submission to men. If she does, she's either been pressured or brainwashed and it is our duty to protect them, just like we have anti-sect laws aimed at protecting individuals from being brainwashed by gurus of various sorts.
Sweet,
ReplyDeleteMy comment wasn't aimed at you, or at anyone. I think I remember that you are not a convert. Actually, I enjoy reading what you are writing.
Oby,
ReplyDeleteVerse 33:59 is typical of how Muslims can't understand simple language. Words me little to them - what is important are rituals and dogma. Let me make a few comments based upon what the words say, or, at least the translation.
"lengthen their garments" is one thing, wearing a blanket with a hole in it over their head is another.
If it says 'recognized' we must assume that people can see their faces, unless of course, they add big numbers or letters to the hajib to identify them.
As to the added "(as righteous women)" this is an example of how Muslims in almost all translations feel the need to clarify or correct Allah's word. It is added to support the practice of covering not to promote virtue or as a certificate of good conduct.
Even so, since when is just a cloth over a body a sign of goodness? A covered woman can still hate (infidels, for example) and think vile thoughts.
Religious leaders love little rules, especially for some but not for others. These things do nothing to promote love, justice and virtue - they are for control purposes only. It is men over women, again and always.
As to "being insulted" would somebody tell me who is insulting who? Is not covering a reason to insult people? See logic above. The verse basically tells Muslims they can insult others if others do not follow their verse of dogma.
As to 'Forgiver' and 'Merciful', these are just empty words. There is nothing in the text or the book for that matter that explains these concepts - just empty statements without context.
Oby, have a nice trip! Enjoy! relax!
Red, the issue is not just "moral ground", it is logic. Muslims just can't seem to get their minds around simple words. They have this preset notion that Islam is perfect and this mentality supercedes reason, logic, facts, everything... If anything seems to contradict that notion, it must be ignored, explained away or destroyed.
oby
ReplyDeletein a nutshell, you in a roundabout way agree with Saudi law then, because you agree with the French law. It cant be a case of 'they do it so we do it back.' its either you support or not, so because you support Frances right, you also support Saudi law.
As for the verse 33:59
The muslim women before this verse already covered, infact so did many non muslim women (not their face.) this verse was to tell the women to cover MORE, which is why after this verse was revealed as recorded in Bukhari the women tored their aprons to cover their faces. NOT their hair which was already covered. THEIR FACES. if you would like to continue discussion of this then i would be happy to do this but with the original Arabic verse so we can speak on what exactly what the verse is:
يأَيُّهَا النَّبِىُّ قُل لاًّزْوَجِكَ وَبَنَـتِكَ وَنِسَآءِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَـبِيبِهِنَّ ذلِكَ أَدْنَى أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلاَ يُؤْذَيْنَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُوراً رَّحِيماً
This was to the Wives, Daughters and free muslim women.
as for men with multiple partners argument- in islam there is no sex without marriage, so theres no playing the field. its either marriage or not.
Enjoy your trip.
what!!!!! so i spend 11 yrs in a partnership with a man, i cook,clean and work@home and he works outside, he gets compensated i do not since no man pays his wife a salary!!! so when we split, why onearth would we not split everything that was earned by us both ( him outside and me @home) equally?????
ReplyDeleteDont know about you but most muslim men i know do pay their wife a 'salary' and many muslim women that do not work have their own accounts. If the husband and wifes agreement when married were that everything was 50/50 then thats how its split. This is also in the case of inheritence laws in islam. For example if it was 50/50, then the man dies- that 50 still remains the wifes + the inheritence that a wife is entitled to come out of the 50% that was the husbands. So i dont know where you get your info from but it seems pretty clear to me.
what!!!!! so i spend 11 yrs in a partnership with a man, i cook,clean and work@home and he works outside, he gets compensated i do not since no man pays his wife a salary!!! so when we split, why onearth would we not split everything that was earned by us both ( him outside and me @home) equally?????
ReplyDeleteDont know about you but most muslim men i know do pay their wife a 'salary' and many muslim women that do not work have their own accounts. If the husband and wifes agreement when married were that everything was 50/50 then thats how its split. This is also in the case of inheritence laws in islam. For example if it was 50/50, then the man dies- that 50 still remains the wifes + the inheritence that a wife is entitled to come out of the 50% that was the husbands. So i dont know where you get your info from but it seems pretty clear to me.
coolred- when America gets out of its invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq you can then complain about Arab countries and reform.
ReplyDeleteAs for Islamic law of divorce, the women is entitled to Khula so i dont know which country you were in but if what you said is the case then i agree that is unjust to put it lightly, and if your ex was truly raping one of his own daughters then i hope he pays in this world and the hereafter for such an evil act. But all muslim men are not like that.
I will admit that what is Islamically required is not always practised due to convenience, im not here to defend another mans actions but i will defend Islam.
@ Jay
ReplyDeletesince you seem to write like you know so much about muslim law i invite you to a discussion on the tafsir and hadith on the verse 33:59
يأَيُّهَا النَّبِىُّ قُل لاًّزْوَجِكَ وَبَنَـتِكَ وَنِسَآءِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَـبِيبِهِنَّ ذلِكَ أَدْنَى أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلاَ يُؤْذَيْنَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُوراً رَّحِيماً
Ok this is the part we will discuss- since you said its typical how muslims cant understand simple language-lets discuss clearly. You a non muslim takes a man made translation and think youre better informed?
Tell me what part of this you disagree with then we will continue. Tafsir Tabari-Verse 33:59
يقول تعالـى ذكره لنبـيه مـحمد صلى الله عليه وسلم: يا أيها النبـيّ قل لأزواجك وبناتك ونساء الـمؤمنـين، لا يتشبهن بـالإماء فـي لبـاسهنّ إذا هن خرجن من بـيوتهنّ لـحاجتهنّ، فكشفن شعورهنّ ووجوههنّ، ولكن لـيدنـين علـيهنّ من جلابـيبهنّ، لئلا يعرض لهنّ فـاسق، إذا علـم أنهنّ حرائر بأذى من قول.
ثم اختلف أهل التأويـل فـي صفة الإدناء الذي أمرهنّ الله به، فقال بعضهم: هو أن يغطين وجوههنّ ورؤوسهنّ، فلا يبدين منهنّ إلا عيناً واحدة. ذكر من قال ذلك:
حدثنـي علـيّ، قال: ثنا أبو صالـح، قال: ثنـي معاوية، عن علـيّ، عن ابن عبـاس، قوله: { يا أيُّها النَّبِـيُّ قُلْ لأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَناتِكَ وَنِساءِ الـمُؤْمِنِـينَ يُدْنِـينَ عَلَـيْهِنَّ مِنْ جَلابِـيبِهِنَّ } أمر الله نساء الـمؤمنـين إذا خرجن من بـيوتهنّ فـي حاجة أن يغطين وجوههنّ من فوق رؤوسهنّ بـالـجلابـيب، ويبدين عيناً واحدة.
حدثنـي يعقوب، قال: ثنا ابن علـية، عن ابن عون، عن مـحمد، عن عُبـيدة فـي قوله: { يا أيُّها النَّبِـيُّ قُلْ لأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَناتِكَ وَنِساءِ الـمُؤْمِنِـينَ يُدْنِـينَ عَلَـيْهِنَّ مِنْ جَلابِـيبِهِنَّ } فلبسها عندنا ابن عون، قال: ولبسها عندنا مـحمد، قال مـحمد: ولبسها عندي عبـيدة قال ابن عون بردائه، فتقنَّع به، فغطى أنفه وعينه الـيسرى، وأخرج عينه الـيـمنى، وأدنى رداءه من فوق حتـى جعله قريبـاً من حاجبه أو علـى الـحاجب.
حدثنـي يعقوب، قال: ثنا هشيـم، قال: أخبرنا هشام، عن ابن سيرين، قال: سألت عبـيدة، عن قوله: { قُلْ لأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَناتِكَ وَنِساءِ الـمُؤْمِنِـينَ يُدْنِـينَ عَلَـيْهِنَّ مِنْ جَلابِـيبِهِنَّ } قال: فقال بثوبه، فغطى رأسه ووجهه، وأبرز ثوبه عن إحدى عينـيه.
this is 1/3rd of it, i will post the rest after we discuss this.
I actually find myself laughing at those of you who are for the niqab ban. I am a niqab wearing woman by choice ... and well thank God you are finally here to save me from my own choices hahaha!
ReplyDeletePlease.. lol Save someone else .. I do not need your help.
I am a woman of this world. I am a western woman and I have made the choice to wear niqab completely on my own. It is not compulsory in islam. It has not been forced on me. My parents are not muslims.. i am not being culturally forced. It is 100% my choice.
I do not agree with saudi laws. I state that before someone starts bringing saudi into this.
The "western" world is suppose to be a free world. Where is my freedom if i can not choose to wear niqab? Yet people can tattoo their entire faces and nuns can wear their outfits.. women can be pretty much naked... yet i can not choose what i wear? Its not your business what i wear, nor is it my business what you wear. You can wear your bikini and i will wear my niqab. Isn't that suppose to be the beauty of the west? the freedom? Well looks like the "freedom" is only for certain beliefs.
Nice.
sweetlikechocolate your arguments for the veil and against freedom are really erroneous and specious.
ReplyDeleteYes, most people know that Kadijah owned a trading business. However, Muhammad forced purda upon all Muslim women after the honor of Aisha was compromised. It has been downhill ever since with more and more draconian, jahiliyyah Arab tribal restrictions on the lives of women. Yes, these are Arab tribal customs. However, they have been exported to all the world. It is a FACT that in much of the Islamic world women are not permitted to work, especially in KSA. If they are permitted to work it is typically at certain professions like teaching. In KSA there is no gender mixing. So women are denied many opportunities. The recent cashiers jobs have just had a fatwa put out against them. Ooooh, women might see a man. How HORRIBLE! In the meantime, young, single Saudi men are treated like beasts and cannot even go to the mall. As a result, most Muslim states are failed states.
The veil may be your choice, but it is NOT the choice of most women since they are threatened with ostracisation, dishonor and even violence. Many an “honor killing” has been made by family members who objected to a woman becoming too Westernized and refusing to don the veil or even hijab. That is despite the fact that the MAJORITY of women in the world are not veiled in any shape, manner or form. The scarves worn by Indian women with the saree are there to enhance a woman’s beauty and protect her from the sun. Non-veiling is not just a Western thing.
A child who is forced into hijab even before puberty is sexualized! Women in the free world can choose what they wear from modest to scanty clothing. Most choose clothes appropriate to the venue, work clothes for work and play clothes for leisure with evening clothes for going out.
Don’t even pretend that Muslim women, especially Arabs, do not check out advertising or purchase sexy clothing from jeans and tight tops to slinky, beaded evening gowns, which BTW, they wear with far too much make-up and jewelry. In Iran the women are pushing the envelope. Even men wear makeup, while so many decadent, luxury goods are exported to the Islamic world. Arab women are notorious for their European shopping sprees and wanting to show off their designer goods. Saudis rip off their abayas the moment the planes leave Saudi air-space.
You have clearly not travelled. I have travelled the world, including Asia, often on my own. The first time I flew on an airplane I was less than 10 years old and—alone! I have been walking to school alone, through large cities from the age of six through university years. I have always had my own passport since I was a child, with no need for a male guardian to give me permission to travel. Nowhere in the world have I encountered as much disrespect and harassment from men as from Muslim men, especially Arabs and Turks who believe that all women, especially Western women, are for sale. Unlike Muslims, most men in the world are taught to be respectful of women. Yes, there are criminals, but we are talking about normal men here. In many Muslim countries, especially Arab countries and Egypt, no woman can walk down the street without men being obnoxious. Why is it that Muslim males are the ONLY ones in the world who must put their women into sacks so that they are not tempted to “sin” or think “sinful” thoughts? Even then they harass and attack women. There are plenty of stories in Gulf papers regarding the problem. In Egypt 98% of women report being harassed. There are viral videos on YouTube of veiled Egyptian women being attacked by groups of Muslim men.
Why are ALL the other billions of men on the planet able to behave themselves around women?
What exactly is wrong with Muslim men that they always show so much disrespect toward women?
Continued:
Arab Muslims were great supporters of the Nazis. So do not try to deny it. There is plenty of proof, including documents and photos. The Qur’an states that Jews are of Apes and Pigs. The hadith states that on the Last Day “Rocks and trees will cry out: ”Oh Muslim, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.” So that Muslims can get into their celestial brothel with its 72 virgins, rivers of wine and servant boys like pearls.
ReplyDeleteI have no opinion on Paradise after death. I do not believe in it. I believe in making Paradise on earth while living. Why is it that everything denied to Muslims while living is then OK in Paradise? Muslims have made their own Hell on earth and are too indolent to make it better. Just waiting for Paradise.
Christians and others who believe in God’s laws first must still obey human laws or risk prison. Recently in the US a Mormon polygamist was jailed because having more than one wife is against the law. The West pursues and punishes criminals and sexual predators. They don’t just get a mere slap on the wrist like in Muslim nations.
While mutah marriage may be shia practice, it is not out of Islam because shia are Muslims. You must be a sunni with such a statement. Misyar marriage is very sunni and being practiced a great deal because so many men cannot come up with the funds to marry—that is—buy their wives. It is rather popular in KSA, where men are known to whore around inside the cover of misyar “marriage” then leave the women after a day, a week, a month, often with a child and not have any fiscal responsibility whatsoever.
Forced marriages, especially of children to old men, are very, very common as are hymen repairs, whether spoken against or not.
You are claiming that Western governments are responsible for ALL Muslims not being able to support themselves due to corruption? Islamic states have been notorious for corruption for 1400 years. The US did not even exist when Muslims were already in poverty hundreds of years ago, long before even the colonialists arrived. Blaming others is an Islamic specialty. The prophet did it with the Jews and Muslims have not stopped since.
Afghanistan was invaded because they harbored the 9/11 terrorists who murdered thousands of innocent people, including some Muslims, in the name of religion. If it was for greed, it sure is costing the West an awful lot of blood and treasure.
As to the US having a woman president, that is completely irrelevant. The majority of American women work and are equal under the law. All women under thirty make more money than their male counterparts. American women are in ALL professions including police, fire, medical, technical and service working right along side men—unveiled. Get back to us when Muslim women, especially those in Saudi are finally allowed to leave their homes, get an education, drive and vote without some male guardian’s approval. Let us know when 80% of women in prison in Pakistan are not there because they were raped. Let us know when most of the Muslim women in the world are not illiterate. Let us know when Muslim women can pray beside men.
The world is not beating on the doors of dar al Islam to emigrate. Over one half of the Islamic world is in diaspora while polls show that the other half wants to leave their self-made misery and come to the West. All over the Arab and N. African world Muslims, including women, are demonstrating for freedom and democracy. Many are fleeing to the West due to the violence from their brothers. Why are they not fleeing to the Muslim world? Don’t count on them getting democracy because the Muslim Brotherhood is waiting to implement sharia states. No doubt all Muslims will just love living like Iranians or Saudis.
Nobody cares whether you veil. However, you cannot demand that the discriminatory garment be forced on the free world where it is considered offensive and a security risk. Stay veiled, a house-breeding slave in the world of Islam and everyone will be happy.
Arab Muslims were great supporters of the Nazis. So do not try to deny it. There is plenty of proof, including documents and photos. The Qur’an states that Jews are of Apes and Pigs. The hadith states that on the Last Day “Rocks and trees will cry out: ”Oh Muslim, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.” So that Muslims can get into their celestial brothel with its 72 virgins, rivers of wine and servant boys like pearls.
ReplyDeleteI have no opinion on Paradise after death. I do not believe in it. I believe in making Paradise on earth while living. Why is it that everything denied to Muslims while living is then OK in Paradise? Muslims have made their own Hell on earth and are too indolent to make it better. Just waiting for Paradise.
Christians and others who believe in God’s laws first must still obey human laws or risk prison. Recently in the US a Mormon polygamist was jailed because having more than one wife is against the law. The West pursues and punishes criminals and sexual predators. They don’t just get a mere slap on the wrist like in Muslim nations.
While mutah marriage may be shia practice, it is not out of Islam because shia are Muslims. You must be a sunni with such a statement. Misyar marriage is very sunni and being practiced a great deal because so many men cannot come up with the funds to marry—that is—buy their wives. It is rather popular in KSA, where men are known to whore around inside the cover of misyar “marriage” then leave the women after a day, a week, a month, often with a child and not have any fiscal responsibility whatsoever.
Forced marriages, especially of children to old men, are very, very common as are hymen repairs, whether spoken against or not.
You are claiming that Western governments are responsible for ALL Muslims not being able to support themselves due to corruption? Islamic states have been notorious for corruption for 1400 years. The US did not even exist when Muslims were already in poverty hundreds of years ago, long before even the colonialists arrived. Blaming others is an Islamic specialty. The prophet did it with the Jews and Muslims have not stopped since.
Afghanistan was invaded because they harbored the 9/11 terrorists who murdered thousands of innocent people, including some Muslims, in the name of religion. If it was for greed, it sure is costing the West an awful lot of blood and treasure.
As to the US having a woman president, that is completely irrelevant. The majority of American women work and are equal under the law. All women under thirty make more money than their male counterparts. American women are in ALL professions including police, fire, medical, technical and service working right along side men—unveiled. Get back to us when Muslim women, especially those in Saudi are finally allowed to leave their homes, get an education, drive and vote without some male guardian’s approval. Let us know when 80% of women in prison in Pakistan are not there because they were raped. Let us know when most of the Muslim women in the world are not illiterate. Let us know when Muslim women can pray beside men.
The world is not beating on the doors of dar al Islam to emigrate. Over one half of the Islamic world is in diaspora while polls show that the other half wants to leave their self-made misery and come to the West. All over the Arab and N. African world Muslims, including women, are demonstrating for freedom and democracy. Many are fleeing to the West due to the violence from their brothers. Why are they not fleeing to the Muslim world? Don’t count on them getting democracy because the Muslim Brotherhood is waiting to implement sharia states. No doubt all Muslims will just love living like Iranians or Saudis.
Nobody cares whether you veil. However, you cannot demand that the discriminatory garment be forced on the free world where it is considered offensive and a security risk. Stay veiled, a house-breeding slave in the world of Islam and everyone will be happy.
Chocolate...
ReplyDeletethanks so much for your good wishes...back home...it was nice.
It is not that I agree with Saudi. It is that I have traveled all over the world and I have found that I am a believer in "when in Rome" philosophy...meaning even though I am not Muslim if I am in KSA I would wear an abaya if that is what the majority wore and was culturally acceptable. If I am in France, I will not show any outward signs of religiosity. In both cases it is law. If I were in Egypt I would try to approximate the dress code that is culturally acceptable even though I don't have to. If I were to go anywhere I try to behave in a manner that is respectable to the culture. So again if I am in Japan, I will remove my shoes at the door as that is the cultural norm and I try to not act like a loud mouth American and if I am in an islamic country I try to behave in a way that is culturally sensitive. It is not so much about me and what I want/don't want or agree/don't agree with as about the culture I visit/reside in.
In INdia children are VERY important and can run around and act wild and it is tolerated culturally because that is the way that they behave with children...very indulgent. In America that is a big no no...wild/loud/unsupervised children are not tolerated well and thought to be poorly raised. When I was in India they thought my not allowing my daughter to be wild was poor parenting...so while there I let her enjoy more freedom than I would give her at home. The people around me didn't feel so stressed and tense once i did that. I allowed her to behave in a culturally correct way...for India. So that is what I mean...whether I agree with a law or not, a cultural way of being or not, if I am part of the country I try to behave in a manner that is respectful of the culture.
To begin: Abu Ghraib and GITMO are merely two (2) prisons, compared to hundreds if not thousands in the Muslim world where horrible things go on. No one in the West excuses Abu Ghraib. The US does not have mass graves, while Saddam did. The perpetrators of the Abu Ghraib scandal were prosecuted and are now in prison, contrary to Muslims who rarely punish criminals, such as rapists, but who have countless political prisoners whom they incarcerate and torture with impunity.
ReplyDeleteAs we post countless Muslims are being slaughtered by their so-called brothers all over not only in the Arab world, but in the whole of the Islamic world. Why don’t Muslims protest those crimes?
Check with some Human Rights organizations and get back to us.
Why is it that Muslims never protest against Islamist atrocities, yet they have the unmitigated gall to get up murderous mobs against cartoons and Western laws?
As for GITMO, I agree, the prisoners there should have been tried long ago. However, most Americans do not want them on US soil to be tried under US laws because they are not citizens or residents and have no rights to the US judicial system. They are enemy combatants who were caught on the battle field. The US courts have ruled that they should be tried under military law. Personally, I think that terrorists should be tried in an international court since terrorism affects all peoples.
BTW, the Muslims in GITMO get special Halal food, they have Qur’ans, they can exercise, bathe, read books, study, pray. They get good food and health care; as a result most have gained weight. Many have stated that they live better in prison than they ever have in their whole lives in the god-forsaken nations from which they came. Many do not want to be repatriated. Their home countries do not want them either because, they are known terrorists. Quite a few who have been repatriated have again joined al Qaeda. Perhaps now that there is “democracy” in the Arab world they will take their terrorists back?
Brain formatting is clearly the case for so-called “reverts.” Most of whom know very little about Islam. People subject to brainwashing are frequently weak, losers, who are marginalized in their own societies, so they glom onto some cult or other in order to have rules because they have no moral compass of their own. If niqab is not compulsory as hijab is claimed to be, then why do “reverts” in particular do it? Because, they feel so superior to their “decadent, immoral” infidel sisters. How can one “revert” to a religion that claims to be the last “revealed” in a long line of many?
ReplyDeleteThe West cannot accommodate Islamic law because it is undemocratic.
Sharia says that a man may beat his wife. That is against Western law!
Sharia says that a man may divorce a woman by merely stating: “Talaq, talaq, talaq.” In the civilized world divorce must be granted via the courts.
Sharia says that a man may have four wives. Polygamy is against Western law.
Sharia says that a woman’s testimony is worth half that of a man’s. That is discriminations and against Western law!
Sharia says that a woman may only have custody of her children until the age of seven. That is discrimination and against Western law!
Sharia says that there is no such thing as marital rape. Western law says that no man may have sex with a woman without her permission, husband included.
Sharia says that a woman must have four witnesses for rape. In the civilized world, no witnesses are needed. A victim’s testimony and a rape kit will do.
Sharia commands that drinkers and gamblers should be whipped. Drinking and gambling are legal in much of the world.
Sharia commands that a thief must have a hand cut off. Cruel and unusual punishment is against Western law.
Sharia commands that highway robbers should be crucified or mutilated. Cruel and unusual punishment is against Western law.
Sharia commands that homosexuals must be executed. Under Western, democratic law homosexuality is not against the law.
Sharia orders unmarried fornicators to be whipped and adulterers to be stoned to death. Fornication is not a crime under Western law. Adultery is not punishable at all and certainly not by death.
Sharia orders death for Muslims and possible death for non—Muslim critics of Muhammad and the Quran and even sharia itself. In the West anyone has the right to criticize religion or government or anything else, without fear of punishment.
Apostasy is punishable by death under sharia law, specifically stoning. In the West anyone can change religions as he sees fit. Stoning went out with the stone-age.
If certain niqabis are not able to comprehend that it is the position of West the burqa/niqab renders women second class citizens and is a security risk, while being against the laws of free, democratic nations, then they should live in the Muslim world, where they will learn what lack of freedom and equality is all about.
Christopher Hitchens is quite correct: “Religion spoils everything.”
@Melissa yea you can wear bikini at the beach! Some nuns wear veils BUT THEIR FACE IS UNCOVERED...
ReplyDeleteYou say that it's your free choice to wear the nijab but you can be one of those converted that step by step by attending mosques where the most integral islam is preached (aka KSA funded mosques) convinced themselves that wearing the nijab is ok.
if you want to go around wearing a black bag simply don't go to France and FYI the majority of people here in Europe are againt the nijab/burka in their homeland.
You say that it's your free choice but what about the choice of a child who was around 5 years old wearing a hijab and her mother who looked like cousin It in black? I saw them here in Italy and not in a muslim country this child will have the choice to choose?
Some months ago a woman wearing the nijab was fined because she didn't want to show her face (she was nearby a post office) HER husband said well i will keep her at home since i don't have the money to pay the fine so it's HER choice to wear the nijab of HER husband...
Marianne
ReplyDeleteIn those days a lot of people were supporters of Nazis. Do you blame the Germans of today for what the Nazis did?
So whats your point about Arabs? Did you not know that many muslims helped Jews.
As for the Quran you made a mistake. No where will you find the Quran says what youve said. Ive read the Quran many many times, I would know. Yes it mentions apes and pigs, but not how youve said it. Typical of you twisting words ;)
And you still didnt answer the Christian and Jew belief of last day again, ignorant of you.
You say the the West punished sex pradators. Does the West punish men and women who sleep around? So sex with more than one partner is ok? But not commitment?
I dont believe rawafidh are muslims, their beliefs are out of islam. Again, i dont support misyar marriages like how you describe so not gonna defend it.
Umm you speak of muslims being in poverty for long? LOL. Did you know the dark ages in the west were actually the glowing ages for the Arab world. Oh the West didnt have poverty *rolleyes* ad I know America didnt exist, we all know American history and how they took over the land and slaughtered the natives and forced their law onto them. As well as kidnap a load of Africans to make slaves. Beautiful history of a free country.
OBL still hasnt been found-ONE man still hasnt been found for the whole country so thats a load of bull.
Women can never pray beside men, thats stupid and will never happen. You seem to care i veil thats why you keep blabbing twisted foolishness.
oby
ReplyDeleteok i kinda understand your point and i think we should agree to disagree :P
Marianne
ReplyDeleteif one person steals 1 million and another 10 million does that cancel out the 1 million that was stolen?
covering the face is a security risk in today's world. Unfotunately most of terrorists today ate islamic fantics. So if one sees a dark face covered human being it causes fear. right or wrong in todays world the face MUST be seen, It is scary to sit on a bus next to someone covered in black, how do i know if it's male or female? i had a horrible thing happen i was in a local train and had my wallet stolen, i sawi it when i showed the pass and put it back in the bag right next to me.. when i got down in my stop i looked to get my keys andnoticed it gone, the train just left, so i chased it and called the MBTA and they looked, i caught the train in the next station, a few passengers decended, the black covered niqabi who was sitting next to me incl. we searched the compartment.. nada gone, then 2 hrs later i got a call from the credit card company reporting some transactions which they found suspicipous, i cancelled allcards, luckily damage was restricted to $50, guess who was caught in the security tape everywhere -- yep lovely niqabi in all black..
ReplyDeletei'm sure there are thievs everywhere, but if someone wears a ski mask into a store don't people fear them, they why permit face covers?? so they can steal and cheat without getting caught?
God i hate those face coverings, scares the heck out of me since i can't even decribe them later if need be... atleast let the eyes be seen...
@ sweetlikechocolate, You seem to be ignoring the points that others have made or putting up completely irrelevant arguments. Why is that?
ReplyDeleteIt appears that you are saying that Muslim law should apply to all people, whether in the Islamic world or the world of the unbelievers. So nonMuslim women are forced to wear whatever Muslims require and when in the West, Muslims demand that they circumvent Western laws, and wear their Islamic sacks.
Sorry, but it is NOT going to happen! Islamic law does NOT apply in the land of the infidels.
sweetlikechocolate said... “In those days a lot of people were supporters of Nazis. Do you blame the Germans of today for what the Nazis did? So whats your point about Arabs? Did you not know that many muslims helped Jews.”
In those days? My point about Arabs and Muslims in general is that bigotry, racism, antiSemitism and Nazism are very, very popular in the Islamic world today. Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” is a best seller in the Muslim world TODAY, especially in Turkey. My point is that Muslims, especially Arabs are racists, misanthropic and misogynistic and have been so for the last 1,400 years because Islamic scripture is racist. In fact, many people believe that Islam is actually fascism—the world’s first fascism.
Hamas has that bigotry as the base of its charter, the destruction of the Jews using quotes from the Qur’an to justify their hate and murderous objectives. The Qur’an is filled with antiSemitism, although it has plenty of bigotry against all nonbelievers, who scripture says must be killed or enslaved if they reject Islam. Sure, many Muslims helped Jews, but even more did not. Today most Muslims work and wish for the destruction of the Jews and the West, while using Islamic scripture as support for their genocidal dreams.
The Germans of today have paid restitution for what the Nazis did. Will today’s Muslims pay for the terror that they supported and continue to support?
sweetlikechocolate said...”As for the Quran you made a mistake. No where will you find the Quran says what youve said. Ive read the Quran many many times, I would know. Yes it mentions apes and pigs, but not how youve said it. Typical of you twisting words ;) “
Really, why don’t you post the “correct” passages? Because, I or anyone can post pages of them from scholarly translations. You can run, but you cannot hide. Educated people KNOW what Islam teaches and they reject it out of hand.
sweetlikechocolate said... “And you still didnt answer the Christian and Jew belief of last day again, ignorant of you.”
Why ignorant? Jews do not believe in an afterlife or Paradise. Many secular people or those of other faiths also do not believe in Heaven. I said that I did not believe it either, in spite of the fact that I am not a Jew—so don’t get any ideas. I think that the Islamic-afterlife, the celestial brothel that every sex-obsessed Muslim lecher dreams of, is directly reflective of the unnatural, Muslim way of life of gender apartheid, while the Christian idea of Heaven is just as farfetched. Sitting at the right hand of God for eternity, playing a harp sounds very unproductive. No sex, booze or pretty servant boys in the Christian Heaven though. ;) I believe in life—and making the most of my God-given life. I thank God everyday that I live in the free West and can do that.
sweetlikechocolate said... “You say the the West punished sex pradators. Does the West punish men and women who sleep around? So sex with more than one partner is ok? But not commitment?”
Certainly not! Why should they? In the civilized world, people’s sexuality, if they are consenting adults, is THEIR business and not the business of the State or religion. It is NONE of any Muslim’s business what people do in their private lives, in particular, the lives of unbelievers. MYOB! STOP trying to foist your ideology's backwardness on the world, because nobody is going for that.
Continued. . .
So, Ms. Chocolate (why do you even have that handle when it is a nonbeliever invention?)
ReplyDeleteThe British royal wedding is coming up this week. The couple have been living together since their college years. Do you think that they should be punished for living their lives as they deem fit? Dare to call Ms. Middleton a whore and you will see the fury of the free world come down on your pious-supremacist head.
Muttah and Misyar marriages” are specifically WITHOUT commitment; these are the very same thing as sleeping around and Muslims are not punished for it because it is “marriage.” What a joke! Additionally, there are countless stories of Muslim males who have had dozens of wives throughout their lives, fathering unbelievable amounts of children whom they cannot feed or educate. How is that different? sweetlikechocolate said...I dont believe rawafidh are muslims, their beliefs are out of islam. Again, i dont support misyar marriages like how you describe so not gonna defend it.
Classic! Sunnis are Muslims, while rawafidh, the Shia are not? What about the other sects of Islam, of which there are dozens?
Then you are admitting that you are a bigot? Evidently only your belief is the “true” Islam and all others are apostates. Should they be killed? sweetlikechocolate said...Umm you speak of muslims being in poverty for long? LOL. Did you know the dark ages in the west were actually the glowing ages for the Arab world.
Muslims have been in dire poverty for hundreds of years and Arabs have been poor since before the advent of Islam. Those who do not have oil are desperately poor. They get lots of aid from the lands of the unbelievers and aren’t even ashamed of it.
The Muslim golden age was built on the shoulders of the Greeks and the developments of the conquered peoples like the Byzantines, the Persians and the Jews. Muslims did a lot of translating, not innovating, after which they burned the original texts. Muslims have this very unsavory habit of taking credit for the work of others. The Islamic golden age did not last very long, because Muslims could not stop the infighting, because Muslims themselves had nothing to offer. They were simply too busy murdering one another—rather like today. Muslims in fact persecuted many Islamic scientists. Read some history! Tell us, oh Muslimah how many of the rightly guided Caliphs were murdered by their brothers? What have Muslims done for the last one thousand years, aside from blaming the nonbelievers for their plight?
sweetlikechocolate said... Oh the West didnt have poverty *rolleyes* ad I know America didnt exist, we all know American history and how they took over the land and slaughtered the natives and forced their law onto them. As well as kidnap a load of Africans to make slaves. Beautiful history of a free country.
No one said that the West did not have poverty, but there are no people who live on $2.- a day. There is poverty in the whole world. However, Islamic poverty is a bit different today where most are poor and the filthy rich share very little. There is nary a Muslim State that is self sustaining. Only subSaharan Africa is worse off than the Arabs, according to Arab scholars who wrote the UN Reports on Arab development. If it were not so, then why are millions of Muslims risking their lives to immigrate to the West? Many who are already there are living on the dole, which does not sit well with Western taxpayers, especially if they are supporting numerous wives and children to take advantage of the infidel because Islam teaches that it is good to steal from nonbelievers.
No one denies the terrible things that were done to the native peoples. Still, there are MORE native Americans today than at any time in the past. Most are doing very well. They certainly are not out for revenge and they are not looking to immigrate to dar al Islam. In fact, Islam would murder American native peoples because they continue to be animists, a religion which many anglo Americans admire greatly and even practice. BTW, did you know that the American Constitution and Bill of Rights are based on that of the Iroquois Indians? Do you know anything about Islamic imperialism and how many millions were slaughtered and enslaved by Muslims over 1400 years when Muslims were swarming across the world with war to further Islam? Most Muslims deny that because they are ignorant of the terrible, bloody history of Islam. In point of fact, most Muslims are illiterate and cannot even read the Qur’an. Perhaps if they could, they would recognize that the Qur’an has some serious issues with human rights. It seems that the Islamists want to practice Islam as in the prophet’s day. That should bode well for the human-rights of Muslims.
ReplyDeletesweetlikechocolate said..."OBL still hasnt been found-ONE man still hasn’t been found for the whole country so thats a load of bull."
What’s bull? That Muslims attacked the US on 9/11 or that Muslims have attacked the modern West since 1979 or that Muslims have committed modern suicide terror since 1919 or that there have been tens of thousands of terror attacks since 9/11, with most of the victims being Muslims? Whether Muslims believe it or not is completely irrelevant. The evidence is there. Osama bin Laden is also completely irrelevant, except as a hero to Muslims whom the whole world watched celebrating 9/11. Many people have those videos of Muslims celebrating on their computers. We will NEVER forget it!
sweetlikechocolate said..."Women can never pray beside men, thats stupid and will never happen. You seem to care i veil thats why you keep blabbing twisted foolishness." Really—equality is stupid— and why is that? Perhaps because those lecherous Muslim men cannot take seeing your ample posteriors waving in the air; that if they see the slave posture of muslimahs they will only think of sex instead of your allah? Why do muslimahs have to be at the back of the bus, the back of the building or even in another room altogether if Islam is so just? It is rather like segregation used to be, separate, but equal was never equal and that is why there are now laws against segregation and inequality. The only one blabbing twisted foolishness is you, Ms. Chocolate. You are clearly in denial about the misanthropy and misogyny of Islam as well as the cause of Islamist terror. I suggest that you review the points that I posted above regarding why the veil and sharia are not compatible with Western values or Western laws. As many have said, if you want to stuff yourself into a sack, no problem. Just STAY in the Islamic world. It is as simple as that. Muslims have absolutely no right to tell the rest of the world how to live or to impose their backward ways of life unto others! Two wrongs do not make a right. Therefore, it would be very nice if the ummah would take responsibility for its crimes as other peoples have done instead of denying them, such as the incessant terror attacks on brother Muslims and infidels. That is the difference, others admit their wrongdoing while Muslims do not.
Muslims are in the minority in the world, a mere one-fifth of humanity, with their unnatural, offensive ideas of gender apartheid and Islamic superiority. With every terror attack the world learns all about Islam.
Muslims want to be left alone. So does the rest of the world. Muslims should stay in their backward lands and survive on what their god provides. Are you not ashamed to be using so much from the infidel world?
I have neither the time or inclination to address everything mentioned here- but feel I have to make a couple comments.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all sometimes men and women DO pray next to each other- it happens already. It happens in Mecca- I've done it myself- and a mosque I visited in the US more than 20 years ago divided itself down the middle rather than front and back- so men and women were praying next to each other. (a rather humble mosque- obviously not paid for by Wahabi/Saudi funds). I've also seen it happen at Eid prayers. And you know what? Not ONCE did the ground or sky open up and consume all the sinners.
MIsyaar marriage occurs in Sunni populations. Just thought I'd clarify that as well.
Marianne
ReplyDeleteUmm typical of u to blame the victims, whats your opinion of Israel? I bet you call their acts of terrorism, self defense?
as for the ayah sure here it is:
قُلْ هَلْ أُنَبِّئُكُم بِشَرٍّ مِّن ذَٰلِكَ مَثُوبَةً عِندَ اللَّهِ ۚ مَن لَّعَنَهُ اللَّهُ وَغَضِبَ عَلَيْهِ وَجَعَلَ مِنْهُمُ الْقِرَدَةَ وَالْخَنَازِيرَ وَعَبَدَ الطَّاغُوتَ ۚ أُولَـٰئِكَ شَرٌّ مَّكَانًا وَأَضَلُّ عَن سَوَاءِ السَّبِيلِ
also, refer to hadiths on signs of last day regarding apes and swines
Jews dont believe in afterlife?
Explain this from the Torah
Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence." Neh. 9:5.
and it is none of YOUR business if muslim men want to marry upto 4 wives or muslim women want to cover up. But typical of you to see your choices as freedom but not see anyone elses view. *rolleyes*
Nope u wont see me calling Kate anything, the Brit part of me cant wait for the Royal wedding. :p
Again you missed my parts where I said i wanna live MY life, not force my views on others... So your free world crap just went out the window :p
And again free world, where you want the niqab banned WOULDNT BE FREE WOULD IT? You speak like its muslims against everyone else. Well guess what? It isnt. Its not like everyone loves America!
The rawafidh have called most of the sahabas kafir, they have slandered and deemed the wives of The Prophet as non muslim. They openly curse the two companions resting beside The Prophet. No muslim would do that.
Dont take my word for it, go on any site and ask for yourself.
Marianne Have you ever read The Quran?
@ Sandy
ReplyDeleteWhat you saw in Makkah doesnt always happen and is something that those in authority try to prevent (by having women and men sections) but because of the overwhelming crowds at times it is difficult.
Whilst there I have also had men pray behind me..you wouldnt really see this in madina where it is more controlled.
misyar marriages do happen but the way Marianne describes is not permitted...
sweetlikechocolate said... ” Marianne, Umm typical of u to blame the victims, whats your opinion of Israel? I bet you call their acts of terrorism, self defense?”
ReplyDeleteI made a great many points, few of which you have addressed, and you come back with, “Blame the victims”? Muslims are always claiming victimhood. It is their mission in life to whine as the prophet taught them to do: “Poor believers, everyone is against us. Let us go on an offensive jihad and teach the unbelievers that Muslims are superior."
I believe in the right of Israel to exist and to defend itself. That means when Palestinians shoot rockets or send suicide bombers to kill innocent people, the Israelis can retaliate with some serious fire-power. If the two wanted peace it would have happened a long time ago. They are both reaping what they have sown.
Which ayah? Please post it in English. While multilingual, like the majority of Muslims, I do not speak or read Arabic. In the meantime, for all those well versed in English, here are just a few eye openers:
Bukhari 4.52.177: "Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/052.sbt.html
Qur’an 2:61 “Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped on the Jews and they were visited with Allah’s wrath.”
Qur’an 4:44 “Have you not considered those to whom a portion of the Book has been given? They traffic in error and desire that you should go astray. But Allah has full knowledge of your enemies. Of the Jews there are those who displace words from their (right) places, saying, ‘We hear and we disobey’ with a twist of their tongues they slander Faith…. Allah has cursed them for disbelief.”
Qur’an 4:47 “O you People of the Book to whom the Scripture has been given, believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming and verifying what was possessed by you, before We destroy your faces beyond all recognition, turning you on your backs, and curse you as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be executed.”
Qur’an 4:160 “For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) in that they hindered many from Allah’s Way, that they took usury, though they were forbidden, and that they devoured men’s wealth on false pretenses, We have prepared for those among them who reject [Islamic] Faith a painful doom.”
Qur’an 5:59 “Say: ‘People of the Book! Do you disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that has come to us and that which came before?’ Say: ‘Shall I point out to you something much worse than this by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom He transformed into apes and swine.”
Qur’an 2:64 “But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you.”
Ishaq:250 “The bestial transformation occurred when Allah turned Jews into apes, despised.”
Qur’an 88:1 “Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (all disbelievers, Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”
Anyone who wishes to check as to accuracy can always go to the multitude of scholarly translations of the Qur’an and ahadith on the web. Online Qur’an project providing an online, searchable Quran with worldwide translations: http://al-quran.info/?x=y#&&sura=76&aya=1&trans=en-yusuf_ali&show=both,transliteration-english&ver=2.00
I can of course post scores more from ahadith as well as the Qur’an, Islamic scholars and historians.
Most Jews will say they do not believe in Heaven or Hell. The afterlife is limited because in Judaism the emphasis is on life and how to best live it. There is a belief in a soul that never dies. There is certainly no belief in the decadent Paradise of Islam or the fires of Hell. The wicked get instant punishment via conscious torment. Olam Ha-Ba is a type of reincarnation, another state of being as opposed to fornicating in Paradise with 72 virgins for eternity. You might want to read Maimonides on the issue.
ReplyDelete”and it is none of YOUR business if muslim men want to marry upto 4 wives or muslim women want to cover up. But typical of you to see your choices as freedom but not see anyone elses view. *rolleyes*”
It is my business if they do it in the West and demand that the law should accommodate them. You want to have your cake and eat it too: Sharia law in dar al Islam and sharia law in all the lands of the unbelievers.
I and most people in the world could not care less whether Muslims have dozens of wives and use those like sex machines and pop out little jihadis by the dozens to be martyrs because they love death. I only care that they do not break Western or international laws, such as those against polygamy and that my taxes do not support these law breakers. Since you have some affiliation to the UK, you must know that a HUGE number of such law breakers are on the dole and thumbing their noses at the “dumb” dhimmies.
”Nope u wont see me calling Kate anything, the Brit part of me cant wait for the Royal wedding. :p”
Really? Would you not say this is a bit hypocritical since you advocate Islamic punishment for fornicators and so-called adulterers?
Niqab/burqa are against western standards of equality. It is a political statement of sedition. Muslims who insist on these are FORCING sharia and that will NOT fly! You are FREE to wear these in dar al Islam, especially nice in the hotter lands.
Muslims are the ones who divide the world into dar al Islam and dar al Harb. They are the ones who constantly insist that Islam must rule the world as the Qur’an tells them and they will proselytize and fight until that happens. Proselytizing is punishable by DEATH in Saudi Arabia. What about if the rest of the world introduced that law for proselytizing Muslims? DEATH for niqab/burqa political/religious proselytizing?
No, everyone does not love America, but an awful lot of people love to emulate American everything from pop-culture to way of life; an awful lot of people, Muslims included, want to immigrate to the US and of course virtually all nations use what the Americans have developed and invented. Why do you use so many American products and services? Give them up and be a better Muslim!
The rawafidh have called most of the sahabas kafir, they have slandered and deemed the wives of The Prophet as non muslim. They openly curse the two companions resting beside The Prophet. No muslim would do that. Dont take my word for it, go on any site and ask for yourself.”
Yes, and all Muslims call the rest of the world kafir and curse them. Everyone knows that Sunnis hate Shia, Shia hate Sunnis and they both hate every other sect. Muslims have been persecuting and murdering their brothers in Islam since the days of the rightly guided caliphs—most of whom were murdered by their brothers. You skipped that fact as well. I recently had a meeting with a Sunni acquaintance, an educated person with an American advanced degree, who was happy to announce that all Shia should be killed. Oh, well. . .
If all Muslims believe that the Qur’an is the direct, unchanged word from their allah, what is the deal with the hatred of other Muslims; just a little holdover from Jahiliyyah, which seems to be alive and well, especially among the tribal peoples? Odd how so many Muslims today behave just like the barbarians they claim to have replaced during the Jahiliyyah period before Islam.
Marianne Have you ever read The Quran?
ReplyDeleteMost likely, much more often than you, Ms. Choco. I also know Islamic history extremely well. That is why I am so against it, because I have studied the Qur’an and find it the most hate-filled, bigoted religious book that I have ever read. Numerous people have compared it to Hitler’s “Mein Kampf.” Islamofascism is what they call it.
The ahadith and the sunnah, on which much of discriminatory sharia law is based are not much better. Did you know that the infidels most familiar as to what is in the Qur’an are fundamentalist Christians? (Not that I am one.)
The thing is that people all over the world are learning about and even studying Islam, therewith finding out that it is not the religion of peace. It should be taught in every school. That would clear things up very quickly.
Now, back to the subject at hand. Wear your sack with niqab, but do that in an Islamic country. When in the West, you need to obey the laws of the land and respect Western customs. Just as Susie or I cannot wear our western clothes without covering them with the black-bag in Saudi, just as we are required to obey the laws of Muslims when in their countries, YOU need to also respect and obey the laws of the West or stay out!
Your harping on the Muslim right to freedom of religion being curtailed is so much nonsense, since nowhere is any Muslim stopped from worshipping their allah. Burqa/niqab is not a requirement of Islam. That is something your chauvinistic Muslim males made up to control their women. It is a well established fact that men who do not have a solid sense of masculinity or accomplishment often used and abuse women, children and animals.
Islam, especially in its birthplace, does not offer freedom of religion to any other faith. Shoot! They do not even offer freedom of movement or freedom of association.
So, where is the respect and no compulsion in religion that is claimed?
honestly i dont have the time to keep up this argument with you.
ReplyDeleteAll i can say is educate yourself of the shariah. And stop hating. You assume im the type of person that goes around shouting for shariah, may i assume youre a member of a white fascist group? That would be stupid. But you have put all muslims into one catergory-hmm what do you think of the blog youre posting in? Susie is married to an Arab muslim man. I wonder if you put him with all your hate.
I do respect the laws of the West and follow them but mind my own damn business. Having said that, so long as im not harming anyone i dont see why anyone should have the right to tell me to uncover.
And Marianne, if you have read the Quran you must know Arabic, the translations are translations but The Quran is Only one IN ARABIC.
oh and most likley more often than me. lol
Whilst posting youre hadiths, i suggest you also research signs of the last day on 'muslims' permitting things-what will they be changed into? Apes and pigs too? haha totally debunks your thing on the Jews. :p
Marianne.
ReplyDeleteI hope for your own sake you never have to go through what the palestinians go through. I hope for your sake youre never thrown out of your home for no reason.
And as for the RW, i love the fact that America wasnt invited!
Love the dress, quite modest as is the veil.. :p
sweetlikechocolate said... honestly i dont have the time to keep up this argument with you.
ReplyDeleteOh, I do not expect it since you have nothing of substance to counter but the usual, Islam is superior and everyone else is Islamophobic, blah, blah, blah. You had no answers for the others who challenged you above either. Muslims are notorious for being cowards and running away, which of course changes nothing.
All i can say is educate yourself of the shariah. And stop hating. You assume im the type of person that goes around shouting for shariah, may i assume youre a member of a white fascist group? That would be stupid. But you have put all muslims into one catergory-hmm what do you think of the blog youre posting in? Susie is married to an Arab muslim man. I wonder if you put him with all your hate.
Yes, that is the standard Islamic BS. If one objects to misanthropic, mysogynstic Islam trying to force everyone back into the 7th century, then one is a hater. I am not running about the streets shouting for Muslims to ‘GO TO HELL” or with signs that say: “Behead those who insult Islam,” but Muslims are! I am not threatening to kill anyone, but Muslims are! In fact, Muslims have killed many innocents in the name of their ideology but, they choose to ignore the carnage since it’s for allah. All Muslims claim to follow the Qur’an regardless of ethnicity, culture or sect. Therefore, the big link to Islamist terror is the Qur’an. After all, they quote it all the time while there are not hundreds of millions of Muslims protesting the carnage. Susie has addressed her issues with Islamic/Saudi customs and laws many times. She objects to being forced to wear the abaya and not being able to live life as she normally would in the West. I and others have often said, that we could not do it for love or money. I admire Susie for her perseverance. Her son did not seem to like the whole thing and left the kingdom.
Given that you have exhibited hatred of not only nonMuslims but the wrong sorts of Muslims, the Shia, I will leave the hate to you. I am very educated on all 4 schools of Islamic jurisprudence and sharia. That is why you are so bothered. No one in the West objects to Muslims or any other faith as long as they respect our customs and obey our laws which you clearly DO NOT want to do. You place your religious laws above all.
I do respect the laws of the West and follow them but mind my own damn business. Having said that, so long as im not harming anyone i dont see why anyone should have the right to tell me to uncover.
You do not mind your own business, since you are telling the West that we have no right to make laws against sharia.
Qur'an in Arabic. That is one of the typical stupid things that supremacist, racist Muslims claim. The fact remains that ONLY 12% of Muslims are Arab speakers. The Qur’an is written in classical Arabic. I doubt very much that even you speak that. What about that other 88% of Muslims, are their translations no good? Additionally, the original Qur’an was “revealed” in Aramaic. Do you speak that? ;) Whilst posting youre hadiths, i suggest you also research signs of the last day on 'muslims' permitting things-what will they be changed into? Apes and pigs too? haha totally debunks your thing on the Jews. :p
You have posted NOTHING to counter my arguments except silliness and snide remarks. I can post hundreds of more hateful, anti-Semitic, misanthropic quotes from the Qur’an and other islamic scripture. Perhaps if all of those were cut out of Islam’s ‘holy’ books, then the ummah would be peaceful. Of course, then there would be nothing left but the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians that the beloved prophet lifted from them before he was driven to Medina, where he began wars to further Islam. Apparently you, like most Muslims have no problem with an Islamic empire.
You are grasping at straws. More and more people are learning and know about Islam. It does not look good.
sweetlikechocolate said...Marianne. I hope for your own sake you never have to go through what the palestinians go through. I hope for your sake youre never thrown out of your home for no reason.
ReplyDeleteNo reason? Terror is no reason? Sending suicide bombers into busses and pizza parlors to blow up women and children is no reason? Sending terrorists to knife-murder whole families including babies is no reason? Regular rocket attacks is no reason? Calling for the destruction of Israel and the annihilation of all Jews is no reason?
The Palestinians had plenty of chances to declare a state decades ago. They chose terror! They chose war upon urging of their Arab brothers and are now reaping what they have sown. Interesting too is that the Palestinians were kicked out of all Arab states because they were seditionists and terrorists. You may want to note that neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis are particularly popular. However, the Jews made the dessert bloom while the Arabs, after decades of infidel aid still are not independent with their economies. Many have said that all aid to both should be cut off. I agree.
Still, if there were peace with Israel tomorrow that would not stop Islamist terror and Muslims dreaming of their worldwide caliphate. All Muslims love the idea of Islam ruling over all peoples, which is a bit of a laugh since the majority are illiterate and living in the dark ages. How, will those living in the seventh century rule a technological world?
The infidel world considers the call for the rule of Islam sedition.
_____
If the system took more data, one could make it a single post.
sweetlikechocolate said... ” And as for the RW, i love the fact that America wasnt invited!
ReplyDeleteYes, that is rather Islamic, to be joyful at such things. I would not expect any more from the likes of you. We remember extremely well how Muslims celebrated on 9/11 singing, dancing in the streets and passing out sweets as thousands were murdered by Islamic terrorists. Never mind that some of the victims were Muslims. They were clearly not the “right” sort of Muslims. Perhaps they were Shia?
Actually quite a few Americans were invited, just not the administration. According to a St James’s Palace spokesman: ‘The wedding will not be a formal state occasion since Prince William is neither the sovereign nor the heir to the throne...The decision is an example of William’s single-minded desire to hold the first ever ‘people’s wedding’ by packing the pews with members of the public who have worked with his 21 charities...’
It is a private wedding to which the happy couple invited people whom they wanted to invite such as ordinary people like the pub owner of Katherine’s village. Do you for a moment believe that the Arab (self-appointed) royals would ever invite ordinary people like a butcher, baker and pub owner to anything? lol
Plenty of Muslims were not invited either. In fact a number were uninvited because of terror. Obama was probably also not invited because he and his wife are not personal friends of the royals and they are not exactly a class act. I would not necessarily want to invite the Obamas to my party either. They have the worst taste in clothes! ;)
Contrary to what you may believe, not too many Americans are pleased with Obama. Most people have said that we should get out of all Islamic lands and leave you to your allah. Note that as the Arab States are burning, no one is saying a word, just watching Muslims maim, rape and slaughter one another in the name of their religion or whatever. How come the ummah is sitting on its haunches watching the slaughter?
Love the dress, quite modest as is the veil.. :p
Not at all modest by Muslim standards! The veil is diaphanous, the dress is low cut, her face, hair, upper chest and hands show. By your Islamic standards the beautiful bride would have to be in a black-sack and the party would have to be gender-separated. No photos! Thereafter the bride would be expected to pop out as many little offspring as possible until her husband found her too old and worn out and took a second, third or fourth wife and then played musical wives throughout his life. Actually, by Muslim standards Kate, at the ripe-old-age of 28, is already much too old for any Muslim lecher and besides, she certainly is not a virgin. No doubt she would either have had to have a hymenectomy or be “honor” killed for adultery. In the Islamic world she would be considered a spinster and a whore, certainly Arab News has printed that many times. Sad that most Muslims, Saudis included, are too poor to buy themselves even one wife. All that sexual frustration gives way to Misyar and mutah “marriage.” No doubt the Iranians will photoshop Kate’s photos, since she looks like a harlot by Muslim standards, as they recently did to a woman from Western diplomatic delegation.
Isn’t it fascinating that all those thousands of people can gender mix, women in form fitting, low-cut clothes, unveiled, partying, drinking alcohol, eating pork and no men think of harassing the women or rape.
Fascinating too how the Muslim leaders can go to Western celebrations and mix with people who are of both genders with women in skimpy clothes. It is common knowledge how much Muslim men love to get next to Western women and drink some whiskey. ;)
Your hypocritical stance is really pathetic but so typical.
@Marianne you are my hero!
ReplyDelete@chocho i still don't understand why you (and muslim in general) consider "true" only the koran written in arabic, as Marianne said before me what about majority part of muslim who doesn't speak it? they repeat words without understandìng the meaning, by doing so you can point out that it's a mistake in translation where someone point out the massive violence, hatred in the koran.
I didn't understan your comment about the dress, when you get married you don't wear tank top and micro skirt unless you are a reality show starlet or you want a alternative wedding.
Oh, I do not expect it since you have nothing of substance to counter but the usual, Islam is superior and everyone else is Islamophobic, blah, blah, blah. You had no answers for the others who challenged you above either. Muslims are notorious for being cowards and running away, which of course changes nothing.
ReplyDeletehaha i love a good constructive debate on islam to someone whos willing to actually listen but this following statement of yours proves jsut how ignorant and blind you are:
I am not running about the streets shouting for Muslims to ‘GO TO HELL” or with signs that say: “Behead those who insult Islam,
yes some muslims have done that. Have i?
There are Americans that have hatred for anyone know white. Since youre American shall i put you in that cetergory or shall i see the actions of those people to be THEIR actions, not every americans? Have you even asked me what my opinion of 11/9 is? No you automatically assume i support terrorist attacks because OTHER muslims have done so. So should those same assumptions be put onto EVERY AMERICAN or EVERY christian or infact every group for the actions of a few fundamentalists?
NO THATS STUPID JUST LIKE YOUR ARGUMENTS..
You do not mind your own business, since you are telling the West that we have no right to make laws against sharia.
haha have you seen the West? Where have i said that? Ive said that a free world cannot be free if their freedom is limited to only one train of thought. That is not free, its just as 'closed' as elsewhere, except with freedom on it. So dont twist my words.
more and more people are also accepting Islam. Arabic is the original language of the Quran, get your facts right instead of spewning crap and trying to make it fact.
The Quran itself states:
إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَاهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لَّعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ
وَكَذَٰلِكَ أَنزَلْنَاهُ حُكْمًا عَرَبِيًّا
لِّسَانُ الَّذِي يُلْحِدُونَ إِلَيْهِ أَعْجَمِيٌّ وَهَـٰذَا لِسَانٌ عَرَبِيٌّ مُّبِينٌ
بِلِسَانٍ عَرَبِيٍّ مُّبِينٍ
thats just a few proofs. Need i carry on.
No reason? Terror is no reason? Sending suicide bombers into busses and pizza parlors to blow up women and children is no reason? Sending terrorists to knife-murder whole families including babies is no reason? Regular rocket attacks is no reason? Calling for the destruction of Israel and the annihilation of all Jews is no reason?
ReplyDeletei take it you supported the Gaza massacre.
Yes, that is rather Islamic, to be joyful at such things. I would not expect any more from the likes of you. We remember extremely well how Muslims celebrated on 9/11 singing, dancing in the streets and passing out sweets as thousands were murdered by Islamic terrorists. Never mind that some of the victims were Muslims. They were clearly not the “right” sort of Muslims. Perhaps they were Shia?
personally i didnt celebrate and dont know anyone on the streets celebrating. But yes i saw the news.
Oh theres another thing you may wanna look up. 'Khawarij'
and again typical of you to put all muslims into one. the reason why many men in arab countries find it hard to marry is because their stupid CULTURE places high mahrs. This is not islamic, and since youve studied Islam as you claim you should know. Mahr is a gift from the groom to the bride on what THEY agree.
You see the difference here is you just read articles and paint all muslims, i AM a muslim woman, i live being a muslim woman so i know what you say is highly ignorant because it doesnt apply to EVERY muslim. You just painted every muslim that way. I know a lot of women NOT married at that age, having chosen to first pursue their careers. i know many also marrying at that age. and if you actually looked, polygamy although permitted in Islam isnt that common.
sweetlikechocolate said... ”i take it you supported the Gaza massacre. “
ReplyDeleteThere was no Gaza massacre! The Israelis went into Gaza after many years of Palestinian rocket attacks. That is called self-defense. I doubt that any other people would have put up with it for as long as the Israelis did. It has been documented that the terrorists used their own civilians, including children, as human shields just as the Muslims are doing now during the so-called Arab Spring.
I do not support everything that the Israelis do. I absolutely support self-defense. I do not believe in turning the other cheek, in particular not to Islamic terrorists.
Choco: ”personally i didnt celebrate and dont know anyone on the streets celebrating. But yes i saw the news.”
You saw the Muslim celebrations for 9/11 on the news, but do not know anyone personally who celebrated? I sincerely doubt that. I would bet that most Muslims celebrated behind closed doors, you included. You are clearly pleased when terrible things happen to the infidels.
Choco”and again typical of you to put all muslims into one. the reason why many men in arab countries find it hard to marry is because their stupid CULTURE places high mahrs. This is not islamic, and since youve studied Islam as you claim you should know. Mahr is a gift from the groom to the bride on what THEY agree.”
Muslims vehemently state that there is only ONE Islam! Muslims put all other peoples, especially Westerners into one. Read the stories and comments in the Islamic papers sometime.
It is the bride price demanded by the family ALL Muslim families, regardless of whether they live in the Arab world or elswhere. Many a Muslim father (guardian) in the whole of the Muslim world has SOLD his daughter. Arab News and others print such horror stories all the time. Recently there was a charming story of an 8 year old girl having been sold to a very old man. That, is rather common, so do not claim it isn’t so. A number of these poor girls have learned that they have rights and have fought this crime in the courts and won.
Ms. Choco, you are the classic, Muslim broken record, never addressing the issues and using the dissimulating, circular argument of persecution, oppression and unfairness against your cult while claiming the supremacist highroad.
I have stated that while there are Muslims of every race, ethnicity and culture, virtually all of them believe that the Qur’an is allah’s unchanged word. If they do not, then they are apostates and must be killed.
It follows then IF the Qur’an is the basis for ALL belief of Muslims then all Muslims are culpable if they support the calls in the Qur’an for terror, subjugation and world domination. They fantasize that somehow their seventh century tyrannical culture will expand into a world-wide Caliphate.
Evidently, you do not wish to tune in when I or others explain why Muslims (especially Arab Muslims) have nothing to offer the rest of the world and this is why they and their ideology are rejected time after time. Therefore, here, for your edification in Arabic (with subtitles) is former Saudi Shura Council member Ibrahim al Buleihi in an interview on Al-Arabia explaining the Arabs and Muslims and why they have a herd mentality, why the West, even westernized Japan and Israel, Australia, New Zealand, S. Africa, etc. are prosperous and why Arabs/Muslims are backward. He states that Muslims are a burden to the West, incapable of independent thinking because of their herd mentality.
Here are some quotes from one interview published in the Saudi Daily 'Okaz:
“everything beautiful in our life has been produced by Western civilization: even the pen that you are holding in your hand, the recording instrument in front of you, the light in this room, and the journal in which you work, and many innumerable amenities, which are like miracles for the ancient civilizations.… If it were not for the accomplishments of the West, our lives would have been barren.
Continued:
Continued:
ReplyDeleteAl-Buleihi: “I only look objectively and value justly what I see and express it honestly. Whoever does not admire great beauty is a person who lacks sensitivity, taste, and observation. Western civilization has reached the summit of science and technology. It has achieved knowledge, skills, and new discoveries, as no previous civilization before it. The accomplishments of Western civilization cover all areas of life: methods of organization, politics, ethics, economics, and human rights. It is our obligation to acknowledge its amazing excellence. Indeed, this is a civilization that deserves admiration. …
...The horrible backwardness in which some nations live is the inevitable result of their refusal to accept this [abundance of Western ideas and visions] while taking refuge in denial and arrogance." ...
..."When we review the names of Muslim philosophers and scholars whose contribution to the West is pointed out by Western writers, such as Ibn Rushd, Ibn Al-Haitham, Ibn Sina, Al-Farbi, Al-Razi, Al-Khwarizmi, and their likes, we find that all of them were disciples of the Greek culture and they were individuals who were outside the [Islamic] mainstream. They were and continue to be unrecognized in our culture. We even burned their books, harassed them, [and] warned against them, and we continue to look at them with suspicion and aversion. How can we then take pride in people from whom we kept our distance and whose thought we rejected?...
..."The only civilization which possesses the ingredients of perpetual progress is Western civilization, with its Greek foundation and its amazing contemporary formation. …
...Western civilization believes that it is impossible to possess absolute truth and that human perfection is impossible, so man must strive to achieve it while recognizing that it is impossible to reach. Thus it is the only civilization which is constantly growing and constantly reviewing and correcting itself and achieving continuous discoveries. …"
... "Humanity lived thousands of years ruminating on the same ideas and living in the same conditions, using the same tools and instruments. It could have continued forever in this way if it were not for the emergence of philosophical thinking in Greece in the sixth and fifth centuries BC. Civilizational progress at its current level cannot be achieved by accumulation; rather, it is the outcome of great revolutions in the fields of thought, science, politics, society, and labor. …
"Ever Since the End of the Period of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs, Man's Individuality Was Eradicated in Arab History, And His Value Has Been Linked to His Political, Religious, Regional, or Tribal Affiliation" ...
...all of Arab history can be characterized in this gloomy way, except for the period of the rightly-guided Caliphs and discrete periods such as the reign of Omar ibn 'Abd Al-'Aziz. One should not confuse the sublime principles and doctrines of Islam with its history, which is full of mistakes, transgression, and tragedies. When the Abbasids overcame the Umayyads, they covered the bodies of the dead with rugs and held a feast over the bodies in a display of vengeance. When [Caliph] Al-Ma'mun defeated his brother Al-Amin, he flayed him like a lamb. This scene recurs throughout our history. Political power is the pivotal value in Arab culture. In our age, there have been recurrent military coups in the Arab world, in a struggle for power, but not in an attempt to bring about a change for the better. Each successive regime is worse than its predecessor."
.....The luminous Greek civilization emerged in the sixth century BC and reached the peak of its flourishing in the fifth century BC. In other words, Greek civilization emerged many generations before the Islamic one, and Greek philosophy was the source from which Muslim philosophers derived their philosophy.
___
Continued:
Continued:
ReplyDeleteAl-Buleihi “ .....The luminous Greek civilization emerged in the sixth century BC and reached the peak of its flourishing in the fifth century BC. In other words, Greek civilization emerged many generations before the Islamic one, and Greek philosophy was the source from which Muslim philosophers derived their philosophy.
Those individuals in whom we sometimes take pride, such as Ibn Rushd, Ibn Al-Haytham, Al-Razi, Al-Qindi, Al-Khawarizmi, and Al-Farabi were all pupils of Greek thought. As for our civilization, it is a religious one, concerned with religious law, totally absorbed in the details of what Muslims should do and shouldn't do in his relations with Allah and in his relations with others...
...Let us not claim then that the West has borrowed from us its secular lights. Our culture has been and continues to be absorbed with questions of the forbidden and the permitted and belief and disbelief, because it is a religious civilization…
..."I am not against learning [from others]. What I wanted to clarify is that these [achievements] are not of our own making, and those exceptional individuals were not the product of Arab culture, but rather Greek culture. They are outside our cultural mainstream and we treated them as though they were foreign elements. Therefore we don't deserve to take pride in them, since we rejected them and fought their ideas. Conversely, when Europe learned from them it benefited from a body of knowledge which was originally its own because they were an extension of Greek culture, which is the source of the whole of Western civilization."
Read it all: http://directed-by.blogspot.com/2009/05/ibrahim-al-buleihi-full-interview.html
"Terrorism Is the Product of a Flaw"
Regarding your point about the 'Khawarij,' Al-Buleihi states that he does not believe terrorists are deviants: “They are the product of a culture that believes the other does not deserve to live.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iItULYTCabE&feature=related
Islam has nothing to offer Humanity http://tube.lankaeuro.com/video/-06gebf_J28/Ibrahim-Al-buleihi-wmv.html
More Al-Buleihi interviews: http://tube.lankaeuro.com/Al-Buleihi/
Google Al-Buleihi’s name and you will get lots more info including, YouTube videos and interview transcripts.
Even if Ms. Choco does not benefit from the above I have no doubt that others will. The Arab world is going through terrible turmoil—once again. There appears to be no Arab-Spring, but rather more calls for tyranny. The Muslim Brotherhood is waiting in the wings, while in Egypt:
Poll: Most Egyptians want Qur’an as source of laws
http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article373363.ece
Not that anyone is surprised. Muslims seem to like living in the dark ages while blaming the infidel world for their self-made misery.
no gaza massacre.
ReplyDeletemay Allah let you experience what the Palestinians do so you may know their pain. Ameen
You saw the Muslim celebrations for 9/11 on the news, but do not know anyone personally who celebrated? I sincerely doubt that. I would bet that most Muslims celebrated behind closed doors, you included. You are clearly pleased when terrible things happen to the infidels.
wow youre a mind reader now.
i can debate with people no prob, but when one is so ignorant as you that puts all muslims as one and cant diffrentiate between culture and islam i know im wasting my time
so i leave you with this
صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لَا يَرْجِعُونَ
@sweetlikechocolate
ReplyDeletei'm rather late to the discussion but if you are still reading can I ask just one thing for now? i don't want to assume anything so here are my questions:
why do you wear a veil? why do muslim women wear a veil? what's the purpose of the veil? why was it prescribed to muslim women?
sorry for all those similar questions but just wanted to make clear what i'm asking about :)
thank you!
@ clara
ReplyDeletesorry for not answering earlier but if youre still reading heres my reply.
I wore the veil about 5 years back. A few years before that i did not ever think id wear the veil, if im completely honest i didnt like the idea at all. a few months before i wore it, i started looking more into religion-and the veil...taking it all more seriously. I decided to read up on what islam says about the veil. At this point, i didnt tell anyone about my investigating or thoughts, it was something very personal for me. When i was convinced of the evidence-that islamically it was obligatory i made a date that i wanted to start wearing it. this day came and went. I first wore it when i went out shopping one day, kind of *took the plunge* Since then i never took it off, nor ever wanted to.
The purpose of the veil is a garment of mdesty, to be recognised as a free muslim woman and to protect ones self against any kind of sexual abuse. Most importantly, to those who believe it is part of islam-it is a symbol of submitting to God and obeying Him.
Hope that makes sense, if you have anymore questions feel free to ask :)
hi sweetlikechocolate :)
ReplyDeletethanks for your reply! i don't have much time now but let me just quickly ask sth :-)
you say "The purpose of the veil is a garment of modesty"
i understand that by modesty, you mean not standing out from the crowd? more of blending in? not attracting attention?
if so, then wearing veil and i would say even hijab in the west defeats the entire idea of modesty.
when you wear a veil you stick out like a sore thumb, you attract gazes and that's not exactly what you are aiming for, is it? or I'm misunderstanding sth here?
what is immodest about women's face?
what about those women who do not wear hijab and/or veil. are they immodest or not entirely modest?
you say: to protect ones self against any kind of sexual abuse. how does a piece of cloth on your face or head protect you from sexual abuse?
thanks :-)
salam
ReplyDeletei dunno if i explain well... when a lady covers her chest, legs, hair etc; she is representing herself in a way that doesn't let the viewer judge her simply by her physique. she shows only her personality, and that's what matters to her, and that's what people should appreciate her for.
& that is what i think it means by her being modest.
Only Allah SWT Knows Best والله أعلم
Hi Clara
ReplyDeleteit is to be regognised as muslim women so that kind of 'standing out' wherever it is, is the purpose. one of the verses on the veil is:
O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
33:59
now if someone was to say that this doesnt specifically mention the word 'face' then a little more investigating is all it takes to see why it means the face-one being the women were already covering their bodies and heads.. the face and hands were the only thing uncovered, hence this verse requiring more covering was the face...
as for the face-it is a main point of attraction.
Its not about we wear so we're better than you, its just a requirement (only for muslims)
as for the sexual abuse part-if theres a rapist about, and theres a woman fully covered and a woman not covered much, who is the more likely target?
@ <3 <3 <3
ReplyDeletesorry for late reply!
you didn't mention covering face.
i understand that hair is very feminine and part of woman's attractiveness but i wouldn't say, it can send someone into a sexual frenzy or destroy their ability to concentrate and appreciate you, as a person, holistically.
do you?
@sweetlikechocolate
i get the idea of veiling as indicating you are a muslim woman. i think hijab does that already. veil is taking it one step further, at least to me.
you say that face is the main point of attraction, to whom? men? how attractive one's face can possibly be to be persuaded to cover it?
what happens if you don't cover it?
i think we have different definitions of modesty. mine does apply to clothing but also to behaviour. as far as i know, hijab is a concept that applies not only to covering your body but it should also apply to the way you conduct yourself (correct me if i'm wrong).
what is your definition?
"Its not about we wear so we're better than you" - maybe it's not (although i find that hard to believe after watching so many vids on youtube by muslim women being condescending about the way regular women in the west dress (not those half-naked ones), or their fellow muslim sisters.
plus, i assume you know that back in Mohammad's time, slave girls were not allowed to veil because there were not free muslim women. so they would be chased around and bothered etc. etc.
how do you feel about that as a fellow woman? wouldn't you want for another woman to go about her business without trouble just as you?
as for rape example you gave. i believe rape is about power and exerting it over another person, who seems to be weaker. if a man wants to rape you, they will regardless of whether only your eyes are showing or more than that. i don't think a piece of cloth will protect you in any way.
personally with regards to youtube videos- i know from myself personally that getting a lot of attack on the veil (stuff like we are forced/oppressed etc) puts us on a defense. TBh i dont really care what other people wear, if you read my above posts, i think i mentioned alot of my family members dont wear even the hijab and its never been a problem.
ReplyDeleteWith regards to covering the face or not- there is a difference of opinion on it. Whether it is obligatory or recommended. My belief on this is if one believes it is obligatory yet doesnt wear it-that is a sin. Actions are by intention. of course that isnt the same if one believes it is recommended.
as for slave girls wearing it, if there was no fear of fitna (meaning what youre talking about) then they didnt have to waer it but if there WAS fear of fitna then they then....
yes i agree with what you say on rape, but who would be an 'easier' target to a rapist
I wish people would stop telling those of us who choose to wear niqab in the West and fight for the right of other women to choose not to wear it in Muslim countries also tha we are "brainwashed" or under some man's control.
ReplyDeleteThis has become a huge debate that strayed off the original subject.
I will let my own daughter to choose to wear hijab or even niqab when she is of age to do so but I will not punish her for not doing so or even pressure her. If she does not wear it for her own beliefs in God, who am I to ask it of her? And if a woman does want to wear it as long as measures are made for id and security, then why not also let her? Fight those who remove such choices from women, culture in KSA, and France.
I think there is an irony here. So many are concerned about the subjugation of these niqabi women to their husbands or fathers, but if you ban them from being in public without it and they really WERE under the thumb of the men, then you are subjecting them to imprisonment. So, no one is worried about the women. This is about making a political point. We get it, France, you don't like Muslims.
ReplyDeleteI think a niqab is overkill, I just wear hijab, but I know people that do wear niqab. One was 'trying it out'. She is unmarried. No one forced her. She stopped on her own because she is free to wear it or not, as she pleases. No one forced me to wear hijab after i converted. I chose to do so. If I ever move to KSA(good possibility), I will wear abaya and hijab, though normally I don't wear abaya. No one is making me, but I would choose to try and fit in.
@ Marianne
ReplyDelete" Sorry, at NO TIME has the Western woman every been as subjugated and enslaved as the Muslim woman—even when women were chattel and not allowed to vote. They always worked beside their men, since the days of the cave men."
That is complete and utter bullshit. Woman were only allowed to work outside their homes and farms during the World War when msot of the men were gone and the factories needed workers to work for them.
You can not catorgized all "Muslim Woamn" under one roof. The Prophet Muhammed worked for his wife who was an important trader and merchant at Mecca. Do you call that subjection, Marianna?
No needto make up your own facts. if you want to effectively make a poin and debate, get your facts right.
I notice that the comments here is a chance for SOME very ignorant and arrrogant Westerners to come here and try to convince Muslim woman that they were always oppresed and that they, as Westerners,are the "free" ones that need to liberate them.
ReplyDeleteClearly by now, folks with this mentality should realize that with that attitude you will convince anyone.
My advice to you is to stop looking downa t Muslim woman and educate yourself about twhat you are adressing instead of getting all emotonal and arrogant.
Another advice to you is taht you should learn to sepearate Islam from "Arab culture" and shoul stop misquoting verses and hadith and think that you can use it as a weapon againsit Muslim Woman.
I would just like to note something about niqab- Im american, have been in saudi for a couple of months, and women are NOT forced to wear niqab. Secondly, you put quotations around"their choice." as if you act like its not. I wear niqab because i feel more pious when i do, i feel more protected and secure, and I seek blessings from god for protecting my beauty, if you show your face here in saudi, welllll duh men are gonna look and every women knows this, so dont act like you arent attarcting male attention when you show your face, especially as white skinned americans.So please you seem as if your laughing at saudi women for their choice in niqab, its not about what you think, its about a women and her relationship with GOD
ReplyDeleteIM A SAUDI WOMEN(AMERICAN-SAUDI) AND I LOVE MY LIFE HERE...AS AN AMERICAN WOMEN I WAS FORCED TO WORK, WORK,WORK, HERE IN SAUDI IM ALWAYS PROTECTED, CHEAPER LIVING, FAMILY ENVOROMENT, AND I FEEL PROUD TO WEAR HIJAB, I LOVE SAUDIIIII!!! AMERICA IS THE ONE WHOS WOMEN ARE OPRESSED, GO AHEAD AND SUFFER WHAT YOU HAVE CREATED FOR YOURSELVES, MEN WHO TREAT YOU LIKE CRAP FOR SEX AND NO SUPPORT
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous @ 8:17am - I reread my entire post and nowhere does it seem like I am "laughing" at Saudi women. You are reading something into what I wrote that is not there. If Saudi women want to wear niqab, that is up to them - it is clearly not my choice.
ReplyDeleteTo ANONYMOUS @ 8:21am - Who exactly are you addressing your comment to?
Respect and consideration are the pillars of a healthy society. I have always tried to be respectful and considerate, and naturally, I was 100% in favor of women's use of the full Islamic veil in non-muslim countries-until recently.
ReplyDeleteObserving an increase of honour killings within immigrant families in Canada and Great Britain, I have come to the conclusion that banning veils in such countries would act as a barrier to ultra conservative immigrants who would not want to live in a country with such a law. The ban would stimulate a profound self-selection process.
Imagine the destructive cultural conflicts generated when the children of ultra conservative parents end up wanting to be just like their teen friends in high school: dating, listening to the same music, wearing the same clothes, etc.
By banning the niqab and burka, a few lives will be saved. However, these same societies must evolve and learn to live with the hijab just as my generation and generations before me lived in harmony with the Catholic nun's "hijabs".
And on a lighter closing note, I must admit that I, as a naturist, appreciate hijabism as much as I appreciate nudism !!!