Tuesday, May 4, 2010

Cleavage = Earthquakes! Suntans = Jail!

I
try not to talk about religion very much on this blog because it is such a volatile topic that people get really worked up over - and I am clearly no expert in this department. I read and hear so many different and conflicting interpretations all the time, it's difficult to decipher "what is" and "what isn't" when it comes to religion. People believe so many different things and always seem to make it so complicated, when it shouldn't be. And then when I ask questions because I don't understand, some people think I'm being disrespectful - when I really just want answers. So it is with trepidation that I write this post.



Recently, however, there were a few news reports coming out of the Middle East regarding religion that I found were just begging for questions to be asked.

Sheikh Ahmed Al-GhamdiFirst, one of the most significant stories concerns Sheikh Ahmed Al-Ghamdi (right), the head of the Makkah religious police, who has come out with a few extremely controversial comments regarding traditional Saudi Islamic behavior. The Sheikh is preaching that gender segregation is not supported by Islam and that it represents cultural extremism as it is practiced in Saudi Arabia. The other issues the Sheikh has made waves about recently concern the enforced closings of businesses during prayer times and men praying in the mosques together. Al-Ghamdi says that businesses should not be required to close during each of the five daily prayers. He went further to say that nothing in the religion says that men must pray the daily prayers together in groups at the mosques. I like this guy! I really like him!

At the very least, Sheikh Al-Ghamdi has ruffled the feathers of the religious police in KSA, as he works for them and it is their job to enforce these religious ideals that Al-Ghamdi now claims are unnecessary. His liberal statements are totally out of sync with those of the mostly conservative religious scholars in KSA. Other religious clerics have slammed Al-Ghamdi for his heretical remarks and some people have called for his dismissal or even death. It was initially reported that Al-Ghamdi was relieved of his duties, but within a very short time that statement was retracted allegedly due to intervention from someone within the royal family. Al-Ghamdi's fate at this point is not clear. To read more about this controversy, please see Saudi Woman's opinion piece called "The Man of the Hour."

Photo Credit: AFP/GETTY - King Abdullah and Crown Prince Sultan of Saudi Arabia pose with Saudi womenMore repercussions have surfaced in the wake of Al-Ghamdi's remarks when a group photo of Saudi women with the King and the Crown Prince of KSA made headlines around the world of late, further fueling the fiery flap on the issue of gender mixing. The profound significance of this photo is that it seems to indicate that on the highest level here in Saudi Arabia, opinions are changing about men and women socially mixing together. Another kicker is that most of the women in the photo are not wearing the traditional face veil (called niqaab) that a large percentage of Saudi women always wear when out in public. Indeed religious police in KSA have scolded many women for not having their faces covered.

Sheikh Abdul Rahman Al-BarrakBut then, on the other side of this gender mixing tug-of-war, in this article in Arab News, you have this Saudi religious cleric, Abdul Rahman Al-Barrak (right), urging that "modernists" be ignored. He said that "liberalization of women was one of the major outcomes of the enemies’ plots" and decries gender mixing as "keys for evil."

Another news making story came out of Iran when a religious cleric there blamed earthquakes on women who did not dress modestly. Hojatoleslam Kazem Sedighi was quoted as saying, “Many women who do not dress modestly ... lead young men astray, corrupt their chastity and spread adultery in society, which consequently increases earthquakes.” You know, I was okay with what he said until those last four words...


I have a feeling that this guy is just basing his statement on the fact that seismologists have been saying for 20 years that there is a high likelihood that Tehran, the country's capital city, will be hit by a major earthquake in the near future. Interestingly enough, Tehran sits amidst dozens of fault lines, yet has not suffered a major earthquake for 180 years. I'll bet that when and if the earthquake happens, Sedighi just can't wait to say, "See? I told you so!" and of course, women will be blamed for the natural disaster!


And now, in expectations of this earthquake blame game, women are already being punished - just in case - in Iran. It has been announced that women sporting suntans will be arrested! Why? Because it violates Islamic values - what?

Do people REALLY believe stuff like scantily dressed women cause earthquakes? Seriously? If you know of any scientific explanation, please fill me in.

Are there other places, outside the Muslim world, where religious police ensure that women are dressed modestly enough and if they're not, they can be sharply hit about the ankles with a stick or suffer other consequences? Or where men are rounded up at prayer time to go pray?

How exactly is a woman with a "healthy glow" violating religious values - especially if it is not known where/how/or with whom she got the suntan in the first place? Do YOU agree that having a suntan is a valid offense that someone should be arrested for?


Do other religions around the world even HAVE religious police that make sure its followers behave "morally" according to the religion?

Should religion be FORCED on people? Are Muslims in KSA "enslaved" by religion? Since there is "no compulsion in Islam," why do people in KSA not have a "choice" of whether they want to be Muslim or not? Why do I always hear and read that there is "no compulsion in Islam," yet clearly here in KSA, that is not the case? And why, too, is it even necessary for there to be religious police here in the first place, especially since there is supposedly "no compulsion in Islam?" What does it say about a religion that needs religious police to enforce its religious doctrines? And isn't that considered "compulsion?"

I've asked a lot of questions here - I invite civilized, respectful discussion, without attacks and insults, please...

105 comments:

  1. In parts of India there are Hindu morality police. I have heard that in parts of Africa, Christians have rebuked (and in some cases have been quite violent) women for their dress and behaviors.
    Check out this Muslima's blog:
    www.innerreflectionstranscribed.wordpress.com
    While my partner and I were talking, he informed me that sometimes he feels that Pakistani Christians are much more intune with Pakistani Muslims (which includes him) than American Muslims. What I am saying is that sometimes it is not the religion, but the culture.

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  2. very brave post Susie and some valid questions, I just hope you dont end up with those ill informed people saying that you are muslim bashing, as anytime a discussion comes up about islam they pour out of the woodwork like cockeroaches.

    i have always said that each person who reads the Quran will have his /her own take on the message, so why should we be forced to some other persons take on it, after all who says they are right, allah gave us a brain to make our own choices sadly out here man is trying to take away what allah gave us...freedom of choice!

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  3. Every time I read your blog, I shudder and thank God that I don't live there. KSA is so BACKWARD!!!

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  4. great article! please continue the good work.

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  5. Should religion be FORCED on people?

    Forced faith is no faith at all.

    Are Muslims in KSA "enslaved" by religion?

    Given the repercussions for being an apostate, yes.


    Since there is "no compulsion in Islam," why do people in KSA not have a "choice" of whether they want to be Muslim or not?

    Fear. They fear choice will lead to apostasy and a multicultural society which is harder to control. KSA is an authoritarian state with few freedoms (like I'm telling you something you don't know). They (House of Saud) knows that when the top finally blows on the pressure cooker they've created they're going to have to flee.

    "Why do I always hear and read that there is "no compulsion in Islam," yet clearly here in KSA, that is not the case?"

    Certain truths are just too uncomfortable to face.

    "And why, too, is it even necessary for there to be religious police here in the first place, especially since there is supposedly "no compulsion in Islam?"

    They'll tell you the path of the righteous is narrow and some need help staying on the path.

    "What does it say about a religion that needs religious police to enforce its religious doctrines?"

    That their adherents don't agree with their interpretation.

    And isn't that considered "compulsion?"

    By any measure, yes.

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  6. Before i answer your questions, i have a few of my own.

    Should traffic rules/limits be FORCED on people? Are people all over the world "enslaved" by traffic regulations? Since there is "freedom of movement and expression" why do people in USA (or any other country) not have a "choice" of how they drive? Why do I always hear and read that there is "freedom of expression and movement" yet clearly in USA (or any other country), that is not the case? Is it even necessary for there to be traffic police in the first place, especially since there is supposedly "freedom of expression and movement". What does it say about a country and it's citizens that needs highway/traffic police to enforce its speed limits and regulations? And isn't that considered "compulsion?"

    The above questions can be framed for a multitude of other facets of supreme control in the civilized world. for eg replace 'traffic' and the like by currency (US dollar and the like).

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  7. Now to answer your questions.

    Should religion be FORCED on people?
    No. In islam there is neither reward nor punishment for any action committed under compulsion. those saudi women who veil because of fear from authorities get no reward for the act.

    Are Muslims in KSA "enslaved" by religion?
    probably; although most likely enslaved by their own whims and desires.

    Since there is "no compulsion in Islam," why do people in KSA not have a "choice" of whether they want to be Muslim or not?
    An islamic state by definition is one governed by islam. Islam is the constitution. apostasy is treason against the islamic state and treason against the islamic state is apostasy. punishment of apostasy is death. Im pretty sure that punishment for treason is death or at last a life sentence in secular states too. However, if a muslim wants to convert to another religion and he escapes the islamic state, the Islamic state will not pursue him.

    Why do I always hear and read that there is "no compulsion in Islam," yet clearly here in KSA, that is not the case?
    Because KSA applies selective Islam. they pick and choose the parts that help the saud stay in power. for eg. they allow interest based businesses/banks etc to function in the country even though charging, recording, paying interest is a cardinal sin in Islam. They control the money supply by have an official currency which is against individual property rights. They don't distribute the oil money to the the people who the lands belongs to (i.e. populace of KSA). Men are allowed to shave their beards while women have to weir veil. and many other things

    And why, too, is it even necessary for there to be religious police here in the first place, especially since there is supposedly "no compulsion in Islam?"
    In Islam spying is forbidden. But an Islamic state does need some kind of state machinery to collect zakat, prevent drinking/gambling and ensure sellers are measuring the full amounts etc. The concept of police; a legacy of the romans is unislamic.

    What does it say about a religion that needs religious police to enforce its religious doctrines?
    nothing much tbh as religion is separate from the followers. Although it does indicate that majority of 'muslims' have followed the people of the book (Jews and Christians) to the T and given up Islam to their whims and desires.
    Narrated Abu Said: The Prophet said, "You will follow the wrong ways, of your predecessors so completely and literally that if they should go into the hole of a mastigure, you too will go there." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you mean the Jews and the Christians?" He replied, "Whom else?" (Meaning, of course, the Jews and the Christians.) [Bukhari 56:662]

    And isn't that considered "compulsion?"
    I suppose it is, much like a US citizen is compelled to observe speed limits, traffic signals, make transactions in USD only and basically follow the US constitution in letter and maybe in spirit.

    cheers.

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  8. Hello Susie,

    The world news reports that some European countries have banned the wearing of the full burqa in public ,with urgings for the rest of Europe to follow.

    The women themselves are angry about this claiming their human rights freedom is being denied them.

    Sounds like they are suffering from the bird in the cage syndrome. As the bird looks out of the cage it thinks the rest of the birds flying around are in fact in bondage and that they themselves are the free ones. Or when they do escape the cage they cannot function due to fear of the unknown. Sad really ,very very sad.

    Another thing I have noticed from reading these blogs and the comments is that gender mixing is an offence and women in the company of an unrelated man leads to arrest or lashings and yet it is ok for a woman in KSA to buy her intimate apparel from an unrelated male sales assistant,and be driven around in a car by an unrelated male driver.

    I would be considered an inferior infidel of less value than a dog but even I can see that this doesn't make any sense at all.

    As for cleevage results in earthquakes. suntans = jail ...

    I believe most people would be too intelligent to take such statements seriously. but why is this cleric allowed to remain in that position.

    Big question....why does the mass population remain in bondage to clerics such as this when everyone can read what the Quran does and does not say ?

    Regards Aussie Lady

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  9. This is why I believe in separation of church and state.

    I am a spiritual person and I believe in God, but I also do not want the "governments" religion or someone else's religion imposed on me, therefore, a healthy separation between the two ensures that... (although not completely, I know... much of the U.S. government and schools follow a Christian calendar)... but at least I know I'm free to believe what I want to believe here. That's what this particular country was founded on... freedom of religion... freedom from persecution for believing in your doctrines.

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  10. Give me one Muslim country, except maybe, just maybe Turkey, where the citizens are not enslaved by religion.

    I've traveled for work to the middle east often, and have had little girls and boys ages 10 to 18 try to persuade me to convert to Islam.

    At times, it gets so irritating that I just lie to them and say that I am a muslim too.

    I've never really had this sort of trouble in any Christian country though.

    Wonder why?

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  11. Pardon my ignorance, but I always thought that earthquakes were a natural disaster, what the insurance people call acts of God and rightly so too.

    Sigh. It's not just India, many countries in the middle east and elsewhere in Africa need to understand that their women need some amount of freedom too.

    Basic essentials. You don't have to give them enough freedom to learn how to shoot a anti tank missile, but just basic essentials. Let them study, and go to work, and wear and dress the way they want to. What's wrong with women having a career and wearing make up or having a sun tan? In India, I doubt you'd be able to find anyone without a sun tan, it's just so hot!

    God bless these guys!

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  12. regarding the business closures -
    In Saudi I managed department stores - it was difficult to clear a whole store of people 3 times a day

    regarding the veiled face - in many European countries there are also laws restricting 'hoodies' worn by teenagers and most business have requirements that mororcycle crash helmets are taken off by couriers before entering a building and many have bans about wearing in public of clothing that prevents identification by police

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  13. Great post Susie, awesome questions I hope are answered soon.

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  14. Your post touched me in a way Susie .I specifically liked the conclusive Quranic verse where it said ( No compulsion in Religion ),yet you see something different around you .It is easy to find out that going after shops to close for prayers is something of that compulsion ..I liked that king photo you posted . I keep a nice collection of photos of the king and princes in occasions like the one you posted to remind that there is a strong message from leaders of this country ,that ladies rights will not be ignored for ever .

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  15. Salam Susie,
    you know I always think of u as bn brave. Simply 4 the fact you moved 2 the KSA. But remember that u live in a very strict Muslim country.I too live in a muslim country,and I moved here 4rm the 'west'. So let me just add that not all the muslim countries are like Saudi. We do not have religious police. 2 be honest I only ever heard of such a thing in Saudi.

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  16. Susie,

    this is why religion should not mix with the real world. People should be free to have whatever invisible friends they like, but the real world shouldn't be based on what other people's invisible friends' opinions are.

    As for earthquakes. Well, fortunately science can explain them very, very well, even if they can't yet predict them.

    One can test the validity of the guy's theory against facts quite easily. For example: Denmark. No earthquakes.

    Dragon

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  17. Wed May 05, 05:30:00 AM 2010
    The Bald Guy said...
    Give me one Muslim country, except maybe, just maybe Turkey, where the citizens are not enslaved by religion.

    I've traveled for work to the middle east often, and have had little girls and boys ages 10 to 18 try to persuade me to convert to Islam.

    At times, it gets so irritating that I just lie to them and say that I am a muslim too.

    I've never really had this sort of trouble in any Christian country though.

    Wonder why?

    Wed May 05, 09:33:00 AM 2010
    The Bald Guy said...
    Pardon my ignorance, but I always thought that earthquakes were a natural disaster, what the insurance people call acts of God and rightly so too.

    Sigh. It's not just India, many countries in the middle east and elsewhere in Africa need to understand that their women need some amount of freedom too.

    Basic essentials. You don't have to give them enough freedom to learn how to shoot a anti tank missile, but just basic essentials. Let them study, and go to work, and wear and dress the way they want to. What's wrong with women having a career and wearing make up or having a sun tan? In India, I doubt you'd be able to find anyone without a sun tan, it's just so hot!

    God bless these guys!
    ___________________________________
    The Bald Guy,

    Hmmmmm where to start......

    I have chosen what to wear/not to wear since I can remember.

    I Have always chosen to wear clothes I see as modest. (Even before I knew what religion I was).

    I chose Islam as my religion in my mid twenties.

    I choose to wear a head scarf.

    I choose NOT to wear a Niqab.

    I choose what I wear in public/at home.

    I chose to work, and then not to work . I chose to go to college instead.

    I chose to marry. And who to Marry.

    I chose to emigrate from my home, Ireland, to an 'African' country, Libya. (Yes a Muslim one at that).

    All these choices , except emigrating, I made while I was a single women.

    Now as a woman in ''Africa'' I still choose what to wear, and not to wear. I choose to work or not to work. ETC.

    So given all these choices I have made and am still making does that not make me free?

    My family range from Christian to Athiest. This is their choice. I have never tried to interfere. Sura 109 ''To you be your religion, to me be mine''.
    However I have encountered many christians who have tried to make me 'turn' to my former religion. They subsequently told me I was going to 'Hell' when I refused. Hmmmm....

    Don't stereotype, it makes you seem ''ignorant''.

    Remember that Susie lives in a country that has twisted the Islamic belief system to meet THEIR needs.

    Islam is all about choices, and intention. If you do not have the intention in your heart then you are unrewarded.

    Ma Saloma (With Peace) And God bless you too.

    Khedegah

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  18. Susie you ARE brave and you've asked some very good questions - ones that I'm asking all the time.

    I wonder about the need for religious police all the time. Islam is applied almost 24/7 from birth to grave in schools, prayer, and everywhere. If a true Muslim needs a religious police force to keep him/her in line then the lessons of the religion have not been well learned have they?

    It is control over women. Oh, how I have to stifle myself sometimes.

    No, it is not very easy to leave the religion and people do risk life and limb in some places to do it.

    I await some answers that I can actually believe.

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  19. Susie, You be careful of the religious police. You have placed some valid questions. Earthquakes and sun tan lotion? Stone Age!
    Jessie

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  20. again, you get confused in what is cultural Isalm and real Islam, don't you discuss this with your husband????

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  21. No offence but where does "India" come into question ? Hinduism is a very liberal religion, in fact it puts the least amount of restrictions on its followers compared to any other religion for regular people like me. Isolated cases where people try moral policing again happen in areas where the population is Islam-centric, and the perpetrators almost always are arrested :) or the cases happen in very backward areas and usually they become national issues and are frowned upon.

    As for KSA, horrors ! I have to agree to the bird in cage syndrome.

    This, you might enjoy reading, a case about burqa ban in Italy where the husband is now going to house arrest his wife as she cannot don the cloak of misery anymore -

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1271848/Woman-Italy-fined-430-wearing-burqa.html
    I love your blog Susie, I am new to it and its become a part of my daily reads now.

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  22. Susie, I love your blog, your honesty and intelligence is rare among Saudi bloggers,You are asking questions I ask myself having lived here as a Muslim for 10 years. May you make many more wonderful posts like this. Take care, love and peace, Muslimah4peace.

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  23. science cannot explain earthquakes very well. in fact 'the earth' is the least understood of all physical phenomena. im a certified petroleum engineer and have done courses in geology and seismic so dont make me laugh by making such stupid claims.

    and talk about suffering from "the bird in the cage syndrome", well here is some real suffering.

    1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).

    fruits of gender mixing, friendship, intimacy:
    Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.

    that's justice for you (male dominated or what):
    Only 6% of will ever spend a day in jail.

    Sexual assault has fallen by more than 60% in recent years. [i suppose porn has taken over that market]

    source: http://www.rainn.org/statistics

    Is the civilized world, advocating gender mixing, willing to explain those numbers. Perhaps muslim women should learn to enjoy being raped (google "women enjoy being raped" - it is the latest fetish in the civilized world) before stepping out of the cage.

    P.S. while posting this comment some 24 odd women got raped in the US. somehow it's not on the news though. what is on the news is this

    http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/04/iraq.women.prisons/index.html?hpt=C2

    glass houses and all that!!!

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  24. Religious Moral police is a phenomenon only seen in Islamic countries..

    Any readers, please show me a single country (where islam is not a major religion) where the govt approved moral police is functioning

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  25. Anonymous--all countries have a morality squad, vice squad, etc of the regular police department. They deal with things like prostitution, drug trafficking, indecent exposure in public, illegal sex acts (eg with minors), drinking underage, etc.

    The difference is in the type of presence on the streets, and what legally constitutes immorality.

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  26. Hi Susie,

    Well in regard to the religious police, I agree that there are some "rare" accidents where some of their staff did actions that are totally against Islam such as beating, arresting and even scolding. However, one of my friends was into a problem where a guy (ex-boyfriend) she knew on the Internet was threatening her to publish her photos online if she does not agree to go out with him (In BOLD: have sex with him), my friend was almost going insane and chose to kill herself. However, we suggested for her to call the religious police to save her and bravely they did without a single penny paid, not even a single word said and NOW my friend is living happily and having a baby girl. And there are many many incidents that makes us proud of the religious police, they even arrange to marry two boy and girl who loved each other but their family disagree. And so on !


    Everything has both negative and positive sides to it.


    Sorry Susie, I have to tell you that I laughed when I read what you said about the suntan. This is totally misleading! Every weekend my friends and family will go to Jeddah beach where there are private cabins and they might have their suntan! No one will ask where did you have your suntan, that is insane and unbelievable! I myself had a suntan and no one asked me !

    Should religion be FORCED on people?

    No it should not.

    Are Muslims in KSA "enslaved" by religion?

    Not much but some are enslaved by close-mindedness and lack of understanding of Islam as it is.

    why do people in KSA not have a "choice" of whether they want to be Muslim or not?

    Because simply if you are born Muslim, you cannot convert to be a non-Muslim. In fact, for your information, almost 0.001% of Muslims who understand Islam very well will convert! But increasing numbers of people are following Islam. In the U.S, 20,000 Americans mostly women turn to Islam each year*!

    I am curious to know why those American women chose to convert to Islam if it is against their freedom?

    * Resource: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7dfxA9nzuU&feature=player_embedded#!

    The statement "No compulsion in religion" doesn't apply to Muslims, it is only for non-Muslims. If you want further information, refer to interpretations of Quran.

    If you are a Muslim, you have to follow Islamic rules, but if you are not Muslim "there is no compulsion in religion", it is your choice to be whatever you want !

    And actually through my readings of the bible and the Torah, the same is being practiced. Christians and Jews must follow the religion. You do not have a choice if you are born Jewish, you stay Jewish and the same if you are born Christian.

    Susie I suggest that you read Islam from its original resources without being affected by what you see or hear because not all you witness is easily referred to Islam.

    Here is the tafsir (interpretation) of the verse "there is no compulsion in relegion" Surah Albaqarah: verse 256

    There is no compulsion in, entering into, religion. Rectitude has become clear from error, that is say, through clear proofs it has become manifest that faith is rectitude and disbelief is error: this was revealed concerning the Ansār [of Medina] who tried to compel their sons to enter into Islam; so whoever disbelieves in the false deity, namely, Satan or idols (tāghūt, ‘false deity’, is used in a singular and plural sense), and believes in God, has laid hold of the most firm handle, the tight knot, unbreaking, that cannot be severed; God is Hearing, of what is said, Knowing, of what is done.

    So, if you convert to Islam and your children are already adults who can decide for themselves, you cannot force them into Islam.

    You can go to these websites:

    http://www.islam-qa.com/en

    (this website is telling you whatever you want to know about Islam from different scholars' points of view)

    http://www.altafsir.com

    (this is for interpretation of Alquran)


    Hope you benefit from the websites Susie.

    Hamdah

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  27. Hello Susie, I am a chinese young woman and I had the chance to work in Saudi Arabia for 7 years. I think that women there are very happy and pleased with their lives. I knew many Saudi young women who are educated, open-minded yet conservative and follow Islam strictly. Some are not but the majority are happy and satisfied. I had also the chance to discuss some issues such as driving, surprisingly most of them do not want to drive. They say that their people not ready for that. I think driving should be allowed, but we cannot force them to do it if they do not want to do so. Actually, the girls I knew were not missing anything new whether in fashion, education, reading, internet, tv or anything. so why the fuss?

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  28. Rafay, women in the west live through their rapes. Women in certain Islamic countries must stay silent about theirs or risk being killed for being "adulterers". So Rafay, how many rapes do you think are being reported in countries where the prevailing interpretation of Islam dictates that a rape victim will be killed?

    The rates in the west look higher because more women report their rapes. I highly doubt that gender mixing is the cause.

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  29. Thanks for the thought provoking post, Susie.

    Dear "Aussie Lady": I have to say I am quite confused by your metaphor comparing the mentality of women covering their skin to a bird locked in a cage. Do you actually think women are "trapped" by the thin layer of cloth draped upon their bodies? Are they in fact afraid of the "unknown", as you say? If the unknown is letting their cleavage spill out over their plunging neckline, then yes, I would say due to their modesty, they are indeed afraid. However, this is of course, not what you mean. So please tell me, what DO you mean? WHAT exactly are they afraid of?

    Is covering one’s body not a right but revealing everything with the exception of one’s nipples and labia is? I mean, if it's acceptable for females here in LIBERAL Canada to CHOOSE to go to the Super-Market wearing a mini skirt so short you can see their rears when they bend just slightly to grab a box of Cheerios, why should a female in ISLAMIC Saudi Arabia not be able to CHOOSE to cover herself when she goes out for foul?

    As all religions have varying levels of observation by their followers, I do hypothesis that some of the Saudi women do not want to wear the niqab and abaya. In this case, maybe there is no choice as they would likely have a difficult/impossible time out with it. Perhaps when these women go on vacation outside KSA they take it off. However, I absolutely do believe that most of the women want to wear it as means to please God, attain a high level of modesty, or some other reason I can not possibly know. If single, educated, self-confident, outgoing, Muslims do it here in Canada where no one can force them into this “bondage”, why not in the Islamic state of KSA?

    Do you think a woman wearing a niqab is ignorant? They cannot decide for themselves whether it is what they truly want to wear or not? Luckily these diseased women have you to diagnose their problem. Attention all niqabis, it is OK now, free yourselves from your cage! Escape to blue jeans and freedom! Don’t you know covering your body is reducing your intellect, your personality, your ability to function as a “normal” human being?!! Escape now while you can!!!

    I might ask, are you suffering from the unknown, Aussie Lady? A lifestyle and culture that we Westerners could not possibly comprehend without living there AND fully understanding the religion. You believe they are wrong and you are right? They are oppressed yet you are enlightened? Sad really ,very very sad.

    I am fortunate enough to have grown up in Canada, a country truly I love. A country (besides Quebec which wants to be France) where all religions are tolerated. All fashions are tolerated. Hair styles. Family structures. Political beliefs. Sexual orientations. The list can go on endlessly. However, we (and Australia as far as I know) are not governed by a religion that rewards modesty. How can we impose how we grew up on another group of humans?

    And in regards to your last comment, I am sure there are indeed contradictions. Where aren’t there?

    Please answer. I am just so confused.

    Ann for ‘Ann’onymous
    Canada

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  30. Hello Susie, hope you are having a lufly day :)

    Re. better inside the cage than out:
    Actually many, many KSA and other muslim women are raped while inside the cage. Some weeks ago a 13 year old bride bled to death, her vagina was ripped all the way to her back passage after being raped by her new husband. Many women don't report rapes as they are then either stoned to death, beheaded or become victims of honour killings by the male members of her family. I have noticed the rapist usually goes free.
    And no, women do not asked to be brutally raped no matter how she is dressed.

    Regards Aussie Lady

    ReplyDelete
  31. Here in Australia the husband of the 13 year old bride would have been charged with carnal knowledge ( sex with a child )

    Inflicting greivious bodily harm

    Rape , yes it is against the law here for a husband to rape his wife.

    Failure to give medical assistance ( The husband took her to a clinic asking for sex enhancement drugs but was refused and was told no sex for at least ten days, he ignored that and raped her again anyway while she was bleeding to death )

    And probably manslaughter.

    Between 10 to 20 years or thereabouts in jail.

    Cheers Aussie Lady

    ReplyDelete
  32. @Lindsey

    off course there is rape in muslim countries. you know what happens to a rapist in islam? He is stoned to death in public so that every bloody man keeps his pecker in control [either get marry, fast or wank). But arent shariah punishments barbaric. yes they are because the rape is barbaric. Muslims need to apply this law to minimize rape; instead of establishing stupid counselling cells centers.

    reporting rape is a problem in muslim countries because people have stupid issues like 'honor'.
    muslims men should hasten to marry rape victims but unfortunately no man wants to do that. so there is pressure on women not to report; not from islam but from the society/family.

    having said that 60% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police, according to a statistical average of the past 5 years.
    [http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates]
    may i ask why the women in the US not report this issue.

    and what about this number?
    Factoring in unreported rapes, only about 6% of rapists ever serve a day in jail; 94% are not even arrested!!!

    Gender mixing will only worsen the situation in muslim countries as it has done in the civilized world.

    and for the anonymous
    "better inside the cage than out."
    shall i quote you some numbers on

    civilized people who visit Thailand, Philippines and china to do pedophilia?

    or the number of child abductions and subsequent abuse in the US/europe?

    or perhaps the number of pedophilia clubs and their membership fee run by the wealthy all over Europe.

    or maybe trafficking of teenage girls form east euro and china and in the red-light districts in Europe.

    or maybe what goes in the chruches

    No it's not on tv and will never be. what is on tv are isolated cases of a 13 yr old you mentioned.

    But the argument against gender mixing remains.

    73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.

    The women knew the man; clearly they had met him, talked with him. so mixing with men puts women in danger of rape. can anyone argue with that?

    ReplyDelete
  33. It would be interesting to know the real number of homosexual encounters and rapes because of extreme gender segregation? I'm guessing it's pretty high!

    As for pleasing God by covering one's face ... didn't he create man and woman? Did he really intend his creation to be forced to cover. I think not.

    Chiara, we have vice squads in Canada but that is to deal with rapes, murders, drugs, etc. - not with clothing and prayer violations among other ridiculous things.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Hello again Susie
    and Hello Ann of Canada

    I can't see the necessity of wearing a full covering with only slits or a mesh in front of the eyes as the only way to display modesty of dress. I personally don't wear short skirts or a low cleevage,I do not think this type of dressing is attactive or elegant.

    the bondage I referred to was the cleric that declared exposed cleevage caused earthquakes etc and wondered why such people are allowed to rule with this sort of nonsence attitude.

    Women are brainwashed and forced to believe that the full covering is for their protection and their husbands are their protectors when that is often not the case at all. many wives are badly beaten and raped and have all sorts of other abuses inflicted om them by the males in their families and they have no recourse for justice, male honour is to be guarded above all.

    The cage syndrome eg :when women have been forced to wear the full covering with only eyes exposed all their lives to be suddenly freed to wear what they would like to in public would be scary.To spend one's whole life under the control of the men in the family, being restricted in so very many areas of life is definately living in a cage. KSA women are not even allowed to drive a car. If that was not enough there are the morality police to contend with. I would imagine that to break out and protest and demand women's rights would be very scary indeed.
    Further more most of the restrictions placed on women are not even in the Quran, so it is not a religious issue.

    As for the women who want to wear the full burqa and are happy with the laws and restriction so be it but what about some freedom to choose for those that don't.

    I am also aware that there are very many good men in KSA as well.

    I noticed you said you are fortunate to live in Canada, why fortunate if you think KSA would be such a great place for women.

    I hope that clears a few things up for you...if not do some research on a woman's life in KSA

    Cheers Aussie Lady

    ReplyDelete
  35. Hi Susie

    Rafay, you know what I think you might be quite right....

    and it seems men are the problem .....


    so shall we ban all men from planet earth

    hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...just saying

    Cheers Aussie Lady

    ReplyDelete
  36. Wendy--indeed, as I stated above:
    The difference is in the type of presence on the streets, and what legally constitutes immorality.

    ReplyDelete
  37. This comment is in reply to "Ann" from Canada. This is the exact manner in which I have noticed Muslim women delude themselves into thinking that the veil is their freedom. Let me put a few questions for you.

    So you mean to say (Freedom of blue jeans)...so a woman dressed in a pair of blue jeans with a collared shirt is exposing her all to the world and being immodest ? Or are you saying the only way to be modest is only by wearing the burqa? No other item of clothing counts as modest eh... ? How can you even point fingers at someone who might be scantily clad? Being a woman, I do not consider my body or sexuality shameful in the least. What are you so afraid of ? If I am wearing a skirt and I am bending over to pick something up, and people get a glimpse of say, my upper thighs, does that make me lose my honor or my respect ? How exactly ...can you please tell me ? And if you say women's bodies are to be covered and never provocatively exposed as it is shameful, that will directly imply that what constitutes honor for you directly is the opinion of men around you, as they will be the only ones ogling at your exposed cleavage isn't it. So in turn you may claim you are free, this and that and all that jazz, you are insecure about what will men say or look at, that my dear is a double standard. I would have understood that if Islam as a religion required women to wear burqas or if somebody wore it to please god, but no, I dont understand this concept of being modest for the eye of men, that just does not sink down with me. I am proud to wear everything from sexy sarees to 14 inch skirts to leotards at gyms, to jeans when i am out casually to covering my head with a scarf when I visit a temple, and no, I as a hardliner equal opportunist do not give a hoot about men think.

    p.s I know about your attitude as I have seen most muslim women are brainwashed into thinking that women from other religion are immoral even if they wear a blanket around their bodies, but apparently their opinions are of course related to the assent of men,as I explained before.

    And what rights are you talking about? It may be your right in Canada to cover yourself from head to toe in black but for a young ambitious woman in Saudi, can she have the right not to wear the burqa ? That is the real issue here.

    I personally feel uncomfortable in the presence of someone if I cannot see their face. I find the burqa intimidating, a symbol of suppression and I just cannot get over the fact that why would somebody wish to wear it out of their choice ? You do not wish to see life around you? Feel the breeze on your face ? Harmonize with all of life's offerings around you. Its like a funeral shroud for god's sake. We are mere human beings after all, you are not so special as to protect you from everyone else by wearing the burqa, and seriously muslim women need to get over the attitude that wearing it makes them something special or better than me or any other lady because it doesnt. And of course, you as a practicing muslimah will think that you have a glorious personality even if you wear the burqa, but no ma'am it doesnt appear to do so to us who observe you. Its wrong to judge a book by the cover but apparently first impressions are usually the last ones.

    "However, I absolutely do believe that most of the women want to wear it as means to please God, attain a high level of modesty, or some other reason I can not possibly know."
    --That is so damn conflicting, god does not judge you on what you wear but what you do in life. Maybe women think that burqa will take them one step closer to god,but I seriously dont get it how, so maybe you can explain that to me.

    I can shoot a zillion questions about this to all muslimahs out there, but all they seem to do is bleat feebly about modesty and god and freedom under that obnoxious garment time and again...nothing more which could be convincing.

    ReplyDelete
  38. “Do people REALLY believe stuff like scantily dressed women cause earthquakes?”

    It’s hard to believe that they truly believe this can happen. It’s also sad that a woman would be punished for having a suntan. This religion seems to contradict itself in many ways.

    ReplyDelete
  39. maleeka,
    why would any muslimah want to convince you??
    just leave us alone to practice our religion, why is it that when it doesn't reflect your beliefs we are brainwashed?? why isn't you who are brainwashed and exploited ??? look at all those ads, using women as baits!!!
    Modesty for myself is not a burqa or an abaya, but modest clothing that covers my body.Not skin tight jeans that leaves nothing to the imagination.
    But I also respect a woman who choose to wear a burqa.
    Live and let live, mind your own business, no men made me cover,I do it because Allah ask of his servants to be modest.

    Maryam

    ReplyDelete
  40. Dear Susie, Found this on Fox News
    couldn't resist a copy and paste.

    Women with suntans are violating Islamic law and will be arrested in Iran, the capital city's police chief was reported by The Daily Telegraph as saying Wednesday.

    "The public expects us to act firmly and swiftly if we see any social misbehavior by women, and men, who defy our Islamic values," Brigadier Hossien Sajedinia said.

    "In some areas of north Tehran we can see many suntanned women and young girls who look like walking mannequins," he continued. "We are not going to tolerate this situation and will first warn those found in this manner and then arrest and imprison them."

    The warning follows recent comments made by a hard-line Iranian cleric, who claimed women dressed in revealing clothing were disturbing young men and causing earthquakes.

    A preacher has also told the residents of Iran's capital Tehran to leave the city.

    "Go on the streets and repent for your sins. A holy torment is upon us. Leave town," said Ayatollah Aziz Khoshvaqt during a recent sermon in northern Tehran.

    unquote:

    In order to get a suntan one has to take off the burqa and expose oneself to the sun, out of doors ,
    maybe in a bathing suit or maybe even naked .And it will never do to walk around looking like a mannequinn, for such shameful acts women must be punished.

    Thinks me maybe this cleric is living in a birdcage....

    Sorry but can't help but have a giggle.

    Cheers Aussie Lady.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anonymous said...

    Hi Susie

    Rafay, you know what I think you might be quite right....

    and it seems men are the problem .....


    so shall we ban all men from planet earth

    hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...just saying

    Cheers Aussie Lady


    I was thinking the very same thing. They just can't seem to behave, can they?

    Linda

    ReplyDelete
  42. So let me get this straight- if I tan in the privacy of my home behind high walls or in my personal home gym that has a tanning machine (when you have money to burn that could well be something to have)- I will get arrested? Well now, since when does your home life- become public issue?

    Next the Haia will come banging on my door to make sure I am praying away from my windows that overlook my garden wall?

    Or is the next leap going to make sure that I wear hijab, niqab and abaya inside my home?

    The line in the sand is moving with the dune swept winds...

    ReplyDelete
  43. Hi Suzie,

    Lots of back and forth you got on this post. Both sides have good questions and answers.

    I have said before to you on religious posts and I must say it again to be clear.

    KSA calls itself an Islamic Country but it is NOT. There is no ISLAMIC country that follows the rules of ISLAM 100% on the face of the earth. In fact here in UAE I see better Islamic rules Applied than in Saudi and still there is corruption, drinking, illegal sex, rape, abuse.
    But again in USA I see the same things but on a larger scale. And that is let's say 25% Pro-Islamic Values (mostly because of christian beleifs cooinsiding with Muslim's)

    The suntan stuff is BS.
    But earthquake has a point. Allah has said in Qur'an and in Bible and in Torrah ETC! that the nations that fall into sin will be punished, and as soemone pointed out in comments Earthquake falls under category of "ACT OF GOD". Most of the places that recieve the most flooding, tornados, hurricanes, fires, etc of "natural disasters" also happen to be some of the most corrupted places on earth. Cooincidence I don't think so. But that is my opinion formed upon reading Qur'an without having studied Tafsir(explination of Qur'an) so i could be wrong... I'm not saying Iranian earthquakes ARE caused by immoral women. I'm saying natural acts BY GOD could be punishment for large scale of sins. Prophet NOAHS people were flooded. Sure some people that are atheists can claim, no the floods came on their own accord having nothign to do with Noahs poeple but there again we have the debate of FAITH VS NO FAITH.
    Some questions are deeper than they first appear.

    As for the Saudi morality police soemtimes they do good and we should forbid evil and promote good. If you see a mugger in the street wouldn't you call the police and take him down or if you see a poor person to extend your generous hand? They do so too. But the point if they are needed or not is a CULTURAL QUESTION. Not an ISLAMIC ONE. I say again. SAUDI IS RULED BY CULTURE AND ISLAM MIXED IN. NOT BY ISLAM WITH CULTURE MIXED IN.
    IT IS NOT AN ISLAMIC STATE.
    May Allah help us to rectify Saudi's wrongs and achieve proper order which the world will come to understand real islam better.

    I know you have so many questions about things that seem hypocritical but you must study the TEXTS DEEPER not the poeple deeper. Once you can understand the tewxts you will understand WHY these poeple think the way they do. WHY they follow certain shiekhs and not others.
    From teh outside it does seem confusing but remeber Islam doesn't have to be confusing to FOLLOW.
    You follow the AQEEDAH of Belief, and the 5 pillars. It's not hard to do that. Everything else is subject to scrutiny to certain scholars or interpretations.
    I doubt you see dispute about 5 pillars do you? We fast Ramadan, we give our charity, we pray, we go to hajj if able, and we believe in Allah and Muhammad as his messenger. Starting with this and STICKING to this no matter the sins of those around you in ANY COUNTRY is ISLAM.

    Education is the most important part of learning about Islam. It's not only important to know the question it's important to know whom to ask.

    I wish you well on your spiritual path to understanding how to Worship God. Questions are good and there is answers if you are persistant and open-minded enough to understand the answers. But seeing bad everywhere you turn will close your mind off.
    Allah veils who he chooses from knowledge, and I'm not talking about burka veils.

    ReplyDelete
  44. G'day Susie,

    I have had a lightbulb moment,pure genius actually...

    A CHASTITY BELT FOR MEN

    The key is to be kept by their mother until marriage and then by their wife.

    Just think of the massive drop in the crime rate that would result.


    They would be kept very busy as no doubt they would spend most of their free time trying to pick the lock.

    Of course I vote that the outspoken clerics so concerned with immorality in society should be locked up first as an example for others to follow.

    I hope you have a lovely sunshine day...

    Cheers Aussie Lady

    ReplyDelete
  45. OMG I LOVE the chastity belt idea- and I'm going to use it whenever I can. There is NO problem without a solution!

    I also think some people need to study plate tectonics, natural hisoty and geology, so they can be sure boobs and suntans don't cause earthquakes.

    ReplyDelete
  46. at least two anonymous agree with me. men are not the problem, neither are women. mixing the two is THE problem; which apparently being promoted

    give me one good reason why mixing genders is useful for women.
    arent women independent? why cant they study, work, play, swim separate from men. why mix?

    Also about casual mixing, flirting, friendship etc. How are you going to 'sell' the gender mixing to saudi women? Some fruits of gender mixing as seen in the US.

    38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.
    28% are an intimate.
    7% are a relative.

    4 in 10 take place at the victim's home.
    2 in 10 take place at the home of a friend, neighbor, or relative.
    1 in 12 take place in a parking garage.

    http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

    How do can you advocate free mixing amongst genders in light of the above?

    ReplyDelete
  47. I think this is the first time that you actually framed your questions in such a way that didn't come off in a manner that was offensive.
    I want to answer some of your questions but first I want you to know somethings about Islam. As a Muslim we believe in Allah and His Messenger. That being the case as a Muslim we are obligated to follow the laws of Islam because by the very nature of the testimony of faith --we are affirming that we submit to the laws of our Lord. That being the case in reality there is compulsion in what we do. We DO have to pray. We DO have to fast in Ramadan. We DO have to wear Hijaab. We DO have to try to make the Hajj to Makka and yes, We Do have to pay the Zakaat. No Muslim on the planet is going to deny that these are acts of worship that are required and YES acts that the Muslim is compelled to do IF he believes in Allah and the Last day. However for those poor souls who do not wish to pray, who do not wish to fast, who do not wish to do any of what I mentioned yet want to call themselves Muslims...Those poor souls will say that they cant be forced. Those people do not know Islam nor do they understand what Islam is.
    There is no compulsion in religion when it comes to forcing someone to accept Islam. You are in the Kingdom and you are there as a non Muslim woman. Right? No one said you had to take your shahadah. You wasn't compelled to accept Islam. Read the verse in full. There is no compulsion in religion and then Allah talks about those on the right path. This verse doesn't mean that a Muslim can do what he want without any accounting for that act. This is not Christianity where all you have to do is believe in Jesus and be saved. No. This is Islam and as a believer we are commanded to do good.La Ikra Fi Deen means if you want to rebel against the Deen and face the punishment of that rebellion noone is going to force you to accept the Deen,
    Its very simple.

    Next you mentioned the Shaykh. We dont worship Shaykhs in Islam Alhamdulillah. We worship Allah! We aren't obligated to accept what everyone says especially if they contradict what is better and closer to what is required in Islam. In Islam there is separation between the male and the females at specific times....In prayer for example. If women are around unrelated men..Islam requires that those women are appropriately covered. If the women interact with them ...it is in a business like manner. The truth is that there is nothing in Islam that says women cant be around men in conducting business etc but the problem is that these people who want to mix want to benefit from being around the opposite gender in some way. They want to socialize and mingle ..They want Islamic cocktail parties..it seems to be..but this is NOT Islam.

    Islam doesnt have religious policeman. Saudi does. Separate the two and you wont have any confusion with what Islam does and doesnt allow.

    Susie--You asked questions that were important but it saddens me that you aren't able to understand that what Islam is.

    Islam doesn't oppress women. It frees us. It doesn't tell us we can commit as much sins and still be saved. It tells us that we will be accountable for our actions.Islam calls to the worship of the One True God. I wish for you Islam.

    ReplyDelete
  48. The religious establishment that govern Islam are afraid that if they relax their grip even for a moment..there will be a wholesale fleeing of sheep for greener pastures...they have never once given their flock the benefit of the doubt to test whether or not the sheep would stay...without a keeper. so to speak.

    ReplyDelete
  49. So Rafay, you really truly believe if mixing of the sexes occurs, rapes and attempted rapes of women and children will skyrocket? You really have a lot of faith in men. I would think the chastity belt for men proposed by Aussie Lady would be something you would agree with whole-heartedly!!!

    It's such a weak argument to suggest rape is one of the consequences from banning sex segregation. Rape occurs in all countries, even Islamic. Pedophilia as well....in fact, child sexual abuse is often the result of not a stranger or family friend, but a FAMILY MEMBER committing it. Everyone knows a lot of well off men (not all) from the Middle East travel to Dubai, Bahrain, Thailand and other countries that promote "sex tourism" with women and children. Yet, you're only mentioning of course, men from the West doing such a thing....

    The reason for the number of unreported rapes within the US? Well, sadly...there's till a lot of damn ignorance in the West too....how often has the argument "look at what she was wearing" or "she was asking for it" been used? Rapes, childhood molestation is such a life-long trauma, that many keep it secret, forever...afraid of society's judgment, afraid of being blamed, afraid of it being dragged through the courts for years and you can only handle so much "retelling and reliving it again and again".

    I feel horrible for the victims, and I feel horrible for women living in countries where not only is it NORMAL to blame the woman, she doesn't have much of a chance in the courts because she was well "mixing with non-related males".

    They had a Supreme Court case where they were debating whether child rapists should be put up for the death penalty. The argument against it was eye opening. Most child rapists commit the crimes against their own children, or relatives. If an accused is put up for the death penalty, how many family members will try to keep it quiet (ie "keep it in the family") for fear of a family member, no matter how horrendous the crime, could end up on death row.....sadly, it happens. But can you honestly say that doesn't happen in countries like Saudi? Where the male is considered the patriarch, the guardian, no arguments are to be made against him??????

    Are you truly believing this crap about mixing of the sexes will make men so weak they will go around raping women left and right? That women have no ability to make the right judgments about men that only her family can protect her and make those decisions for her???(oh, God help her if her father is raping her or a brother is molesting her).......

    ReplyDelete
  50. @ Maryam... if you do not need to convince me, why are you telling me again the reason as to why you cover up ? See you explained yourself.

    @ American Muslimah Writer, I partly agree to what you say about earthquakes being caused by the sins of humanity, because in Hinduism as well, it is said that when unspeakable crimes of people cross all limits, God will unleash their wrath on us. But we are talking about crimes here like murder, deceit, fraud, cheat, rape etc. Crimes which have hurtful results for all involved andhearing them would make you nauseous. Wearing exposing clothes, having affairs, alcohol, smoking, mixing with men doesnt constitute immorality where I live. Its a personal choice, say a woman isnt happy with her husband, and she meets someone else and then gets out of wedlock to be with her lover, nope it doesnt make her immoral. So what I wish to ask you is, what exactly is immoral to you, and what did the Iranian women do?

    And before you answer, let me present a scenario to you so that I can understand you better, a lady falls down and hurts her head and her abaya is upto her thighs, but she is bleeding profusely, suppose all female staff ambulances are an hour away, so the men around her should let her bleed to death or should they help her and rescue her ? If they do, doesnt it go against the very philosophy of unrelated men and women mixing, or rather the more scandalous "Touching" ? And if they do not do anything about it, will that not burden their soul with a sin of not saving someone, whom they could have saved? Will not karma retaliate?

    ReplyDelete
  51. to maLeeka:'Hinduism is a very liberal religion'?
    yes to the point of oppressing millions of people it regards as 'untouchables' of the 'lower caste'.
    Perhaps it is liberal only in superficial matters.

    ReplyDelete
  52. @Aaishah,
    FYI, There are plenty of Muslims on the planet who do not believe that Hijab is a requirement of Islam.

    ReplyDelete
  53. @ Rafay
    You did not answer my question or comment on the 'accepted' homosexual relationships in extreme segregated countries such has Afghanistan and KSA. It is common and seemingly accepted because boys will be boys I guess.

    ReplyDelete
  54. @ east reflections
    i see you ignored my question and instead went on a rant. And yes men are weak for women. Well just take a quick look at the adverts of products for men. From razors to motorbikes to tractors female models everywhere. I cant believe you dont know why!!!

    There are many disadvantages to free mixing between men and women. I have identified one serious disadvantage for women i.e the risk of being raped and backed it up with stats from the leader of the civilized world. since you cant seem to defend that, here is an alternative. Give me ONE benefit of men mixing with women that cannot be had otherwise or that women cannot do without.

    @maleeka
    that's a nothing argument.
    one of the basic principles in Islam is sanctity of human life. Even if an army is bringing down the Kaabah, saving the innocent life takes preference. If a lady has an accident and needs help, she must be given all necessary help irrespective of her dress. However, such exceptional circumstances do not change the general rulings.

    @Sandy
    Since you seem to know a lot about geology why dont you explain

    how come one sudden volcanic eruption brings all the air traffic over europe to a halt without any prior warning?

    how come the tsunamis in 2004 wiped off villages without any prior warning?

    how come 250k died in haiti without any warning?

    Why didnt you inform those poor people in time and saved hundreds and thousands of lives?

    A petro engr knows very well what a pain them geologists are; chopping and changing the maps, location of pays, dip and strike of faults. They just never say anything for certain.

    btw isnt chastity belt an invention of what now identifies itself as the civilized world? nowadays they are popular 'toys' - another one of the many hypocrisies of the civilized world.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Maleeka your scenario is funny !

    Of course they will help her because we have a rule in Islam that says: "under necessity, taboos are permissible" which means when in emergency situation, forbidden will become allowed !

    So, understand Islam NOT Muslims !

    As American Writer said : "get deeper into the text not the people" !

    ReplyDelete
  56. Was that a joke Rafay?
    If you knew anything about these things- you would know that there is still a lot of research and exploration going on.

    Prior warning? No one thinks volcanoes call up to "warn" human populations- but that does not mean alot isn't understood about what happens. But as for fortune telling- or absolute knowledge, they're still learning.

    But yes, they knew the volcano might erupt and they knew the ash cloud could disrupt traffic, and they knew a massive earthquake could trigger a tsunami.

    As for some of your "other" statistics, I would imagine even a higher percentage of rape victims in Saudi know their rapists. They often live with them.

    Anyway, we tried "seperate but equal" in the US with regards to race. An abysmal failure just as the gender Aparthied is in Saudi (they don't even pretend that they're trying to be equal for the most part). In both cases a massive human rights violation as well.

    ReplyDelete
  57. @ Rafay - you won't answer my comment about homosexuality will you. No, I thought not. It's so obvious in KSA .....
    Well, I grew up never having been raped. None of my friends were raped. I doubt there are any more rapes in North America than in Muslim countries except the ones in Muslim countries generally don't get reported.
    Women and men need to learn to socialize to have healthy relationships and marriages. You don't learn that just from mothers and sisters.

    ReplyDelete
  58. G'Day Susie...

    I would like to compliment you on your blog. It is by far the best I have ever come accross.

    Rafay...re benefits of men mixing with women.....

    My understanding of creation is that men and women were created equal. They are different and each plays a significant role for the benefit of socety in general. It is called balance, maybe even balance of power.
    Men and women are designed to compliment each other.

    Women make tremendous contributions to society, that is why the west is so very posperous as compared to islamic countries where women are treated like slaves. If it wasn't for the
    oil the mid east would be all be as in the middle ages, some still are. And I notice some prosper due to the massive aid given by western countries.

    Yes it is true , do some research ,the amount of aid given is amazing. And seeing that most islamic countries are ruled by men most of the aid is used for accumilating weapons.
    Men are power oriented women are family oriented.

    I have also noticed that most islamic countries are very sexual oriented and once again ruled by men.It is a scientific fact that sex flashes through men's brains every few seconds on average. You can google that one too. It is very evident in that men insist women be covered from head to foot so that men won't be enticed into sinful acts by their beauty.
    I have also read that in paradise men will be given 72 virgins and if they get bored with that little boys are available too.


    So the benefits as I see it would be balance and harmony and prosperity.

    Men are like little boys in long pants they need women to keep them in line...

    I could go on but I will restain myself ......

    Have a nice day.
    Cheers Aussie Lady

    ReplyDelete
  59. @ Anon

    Caste-ism has nothing to do with Hinduism, its a cultural practice. Since India has a population of 1 billion with majority of Hindus, hence it is known as a practice of "Hindu people". Its awful and believe me, majority would like to change that mindset. In the historical periods, caste-ism was brought into place so as to segregate the professions of people. The Brahmins - Godsmen, Kshatriya - Warriors and ruling people, Vaishyas - Businessmen and Shudras - the working segment. It did not matter whether you were a Hindu or a christian, you would be placed in the category you belong to and they though it was supposedly advantageous for finding mutual support and opportunities among your own group. But sadly, as society progressed, the labels became a stigma specially for the shudras. Its just like Female Genital Mutilation, practiced by African Islamic countries, but not a part of Islam, rather the culture. Its India's shame.

    @ Rafay, I asked and presented that scenario so as to understand the thought behind it, no offence meant at all. I love your answer.

    @ Hamdam, what you say "under necessity, taboos are permissible" , is not that kind of hypocritical? Rafay's answer had a humanitarian angle to it, but what you said bowls me over. Is it just like, they say when you are waging jihad, it is permissible to drink smoke integrate with kafirs to fool their eyes ! But know you have helped me understand better that the laws and rulings of Islam can be tweaked and changed at your whims, just like its happening all over regions where sharia is applied. Sad.

    ReplyDelete
  60. oh and in a general reply, I couldnt resist a copy paste too -

    15 March 2002
    MDE 23/003/2002
    47/02


    Amnesty International is gravely concerned at reports that 14
    girls have lost their lives and dozens of others were injured
    following a fire at their school in Mecca on 11 March 2002 after
    the religious police (Mutawa'een) prevented them from escaping
    from the fire because they were not wearing headscarves and their male relatives were not there to receive them.

    ReplyDelete
  61. G'Day Susie...

    Oh MaLeeka....The Amnesty International report of the girls being forced to burn to death because they wern't wearing their scarves says it all doesn't it...

    And the report of the 13year old child bride that bled to death is not an isolated case either, there are many such cases. They don't find their way into the mainstream media though, this one managed to slip through.

    Honour killing of Khalil Sayadi in the middle of a bazaar in Iraq with police looking on and no one assising the 17 year old. The crowd of men gleefully chanting Allah-O-Akbar.

    Evil is as evil does....

    Cheers Aussie Lady

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  62. Oh Aussie Lady, you never cease to be entertaining!

    You are obviously so intelligent in regards to Islam, Muslims and the Middle East, why don't you pose some serious ANSWERS instead of just googling any negative thing you can come up with and them making rash and sarcastic comments about it?

    Do you actually care or are you one of those people who segregates one religion, gender, or group of people and picks on them? Some people pick homosexuals, some Asians to which they refer to all as "Chinese", some Indians, some Aborigines, some Hindus, some Black people and some White people, and even some others pick women or men, and some pick Muslims! Like you! lol No judgement, I have just noticed a trend in your writing and am curious! I think this is a common phenomenon in the blogging world...

    Thank you Susie for being so empathetic, open minded, and truthful in the blog itself.

    Cheers "American Lady"

    ReplyDelete
  63. I always hear Islamic people say that these cases are rare and isolated and wrong, un-islamic...but the frequency with which they show up in the clandestine media makes it seem like that "Isolated" is an understatement, and these are the ones that are reported, I wouldnt even dare to think about the ones that are not.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Aaisha, you said: "This is not Christianity where all you have to do is believe in Jesus and be saved. No. This is Islam and as a believer we are commanded to do good."

    You also imply that Christianity does not require living a moral life by saying, " It doesn't tell us we can commit as much sins and still be saved."

    The picture of Christianity that you paint here is incorrect. Belief, as you know, is not simple utterance. When we believe in something, it becomes a part of our internal and external selves. You do not simply say you believe in Allah, you obviously lead your life in accordance to the principles of your belief, as you rightly should.

    It is the same with Christians. Jesus Christ taught and lived a life of humility, peace, compassion, and love. His true believers strive to live the same way. We follow His teachings. We follow His examples. We try to imitate His life. People who say that they believe in Christ but deliberately live a sinful life are not believers. In fact, they do not know Christ.

    Moreover, in Christianity, salvation is through Christ, not through good works. Salvation is a GIFT from God. We do not earn it. After all, everything that we are is from God. Instead, our good works is a manifestation of our belief in God. In Christian parlance, we do good works because we are God's children.


    Salvation, therefore, requires true belief Christ.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Maleeka- You are so close-minded !

    You twisted my words to fit your aims.

    My words are clear. touching women that are not relatives is haram (forbidden) but if in emergency situation and no woman is there it is permissible because it is a priority to save her life!

    This is what I meant. Your example is foolish and it is not related to what I say.

    Read Islam before you talk about it.


    I can bring tons of examples from other countries that are negative and I focus on them alone. I can easily make fake stereotypes about others. BUT I won't simply because my religion forbids me from doing that or being unjust !


    Muslim and Proud ..

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  66. G'Day Susie, I hope you are having a lovely day...

    American Lady...

    I focus on Islam because this is an Islamic blog and the discussion relates to KSA and the MId East.

    Some years ago a muslim man asked to marry me, being totally ignorant of Islam and its ways I decided to look into it. I read the Quran and researched.

    What I found left me speechless, I was totally stunned.

    Needless to say I ran away from the marriage proposal like a frightened chicken.

    I just cannot come to terms with the fact that supposed intelligent men can and do behave in such a cowardly and brutal manner towards defencless women and children on a daily basis and believe it is their god given right to do so.

    I am angry and frustrated and feel totally powerless to do anything about it. My heart breaks when I read of honour killings and child marriages which end up with the little girls dying horrible deaths due to the lusts of men who should know better. I am angry at the police who beat women for accidently showing a bit of ankle or hair and let these murderers go free. These are just the tip of the iceberg so to speak, there is more, much much more.

    I try to keep my comments light but what I feel is outrage at the needless suffering inflicted on women of all ages in this male dominated society.

    I am convinced some of the clerics are indeed insane and their sheer arrogance leaves me gobbsmacked, yet they are allowed the power to decree what is and is not to be allowed.
    Women are punished with 100 lashes for so-called crimes against morality which in reality are not crimes at all. Can you imagine what 100 lashes by a strong armed man can do to a female body? Submission is achieved by brutality. Justice does not exist.

    My sarcastic comments I suppose are an outlet for the rage that I feel when I read feeble excuses and examples justifying the wrongs that are being done.

    I suppose you will criticize me for feeling rage, so be it...I am accustomed to free speech and opinions.

    Cheers Aussie Lady

    ReplyDelete
  67. Christians, depending on denomination, have diverse beliefs about how salvation is achieved most include a combination of good works and belief in Jesus as the Messiah, and Son of God, in varying degrees and on a spectrum.

    Some Protestant denominations are far more believing that good works are less consequential than most others are.

    ReplyDelete
  68. This Shikh reminds me of Al-Azhar Grand Imam Sheikh Mohamed Sayyed Tantawi ,I quote from an article in Saudi TV website in parenthesis here ( a guy who has sought to harmonize the demands of faith and ethics of Islam with the complex situations of the contemporary world).A guy who stood against some strict ideologies found in some sects of Islam.

    ReplyDelete
  69. anoynymous' kindly use diff names

    @sandy
    i doubt you have studied geology or even the scientific method. math is the most well developed and accurate theory. The acid test of any scientific theory is whether it can predict outcomes. Ever heard of numerical simulation and forecasting? If geologists cannot model the behavior of the earth, movement of magma, pressure and temperature effects and accurately predict the occurrence of major earthquakes then it can only mean one of the following
    1) prevalent theory is incomplete and thereby useless
    2) geologists/earthquake engrs are wasting my time.

    your imaginations are not stats and you cant build an argument on what you hear on tv! I guess it's impossible to win and argument with a woman.

    @Wendy
    you and your friends are lucky. A woman is raped inside the Us every 127seconds. 60% of the rapes arent reported. It appears that the women in the civilized world are afraid of something.

    "Women and men need to learn to socialize to have healthy relationships and marriages. You don't learn that just from mothers and sisters."

    The contrast between a daddy's girl and 'that girl' from college is just amazing. Any balanced woman will testify that a healthy relationship with her dad is far better and worthwhile than any man. Unfortunately, in the civilized world today millions of young women will grow up without a dad to take them hunting, fishing, horse riding etc. Mixing with men not required.

    @anonymous
    Everyone acknowledges the fact that Women make tremendous contributions to society. However, i dont agree with your standards of prosperity.
    for eg
    civilized world mentions GDP but doesnt mention debt.
    civilized world mentions infant mortality, but doesnt mention the number of abortions.
    civilized world mentions literacy rate but doesnt mention crime rate.
    (what use is education when it doesnt make one a better human being?)
    civilized world mentions women in the work force but doesnt mention women suffering from chronic stress and clinical depression.
    civilized world mentions per capita income but doesnt mention the number of attempted suicides
    civilized world mention total amount aid given but doesnt mention the amount of charity given per 100 dollars earned.

    and the 72 virgin story is myth manufactured by the civilized world to explain why an educated man would blow himself up. Perhaps the fact that his children were slaughtered and his wife was raped in a raid on his house by the civilized people might have something to do with his actions. I dont know what Japanese kamikaze or the Tamil tigers in India get from suicide bombing. Perhaps the civilized world should research a theory for them too.

    @anonymous 2
    well are going to just rant or give us some actual stats?

    @ anonymous 3
    honor killings is not part of islam. do you people even know the actual shariah law? Btw, i could show you what the most disciplined and organized 'men' from the civilized world have been doing in iraq, Afghanistan. you might want to start with the wikileaks video.

    And for the third and final time.
    I have identified one serious disadvantage of gender mixing for women i.e the risk of being raped and backed it up with stats from the leader of the civilized world. since people cant seem to defend that, here is an alternative. Give me ONE benefit of gender mixing for women that cannot be had otherwise or that women cannot do without.
    cmon ladies from the civilized world, get your thinking caps on or ill have to conclude that gender mixing is bad for women.

    ReplyDelete
  70. All these 'imaginations' and 'stories' about women suffering in saudi is worrying me. i would like to ask Suzie. she seems to have disappeared lol!
    Im sure youve met many saudi women by now. if you dont mind, id like to know (an estimate)
    1) the total number of women you have met/seen
    2) the number of women who had suffered domestic violence
    3) the number of women you have seen being beaten by police
    4) the number of women suffering from mal-nutrition
    5) the number of women that werent allowed to finish grade 10.
    6) the number of women who showed symptoms of depression.
    7) the number of women who had been raped.
    8) the number of women who
    wanted to work in a women-only place but weren't allowed to.
    9) the number of women who were lashed or stoned to death. how many were actually innocent?

    ReplyDelete
  71. @sandy
    i doubt you have studied geology or even the scientific method.

    ((And you would lose that bet- I studied it in University.))

    ... If geologists cannot model the behavior of ... accurately predict the occurrence of major earthquakes then it can only mean one of the following
    1) prevalent theory is incomplete and thereby useless
    2) geologists/earthquake engrs are wasting my time.

    ((Really? Those are the only two things is can mean??? I'm guessing you never took a course in logic)))

    I guess it's impossible to win and argument with a woman.

    ((Generally not impossible, but it might well be true in your case- if that's what you claim, I believe you.))

    ReplyDelete
  72. Rafay,
    You have shown some rape statistics for the US. Can you please share comparable ones from KSA so we can make a meaningful comparison? Depending on that result, should a comparable set of KSA statistics show that rape is more commen in the west- we will need evidence of causation- because there could be other factors besides gender mixing at play.

    But before we get ahead of ourselves, we would need the Saudi stats first.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Rafay can't answer a question I've asked twice now about how a blind eye is turned to homosexuality in KSA and other Muslim countries such as Afghanistan (where rape is committed against little boys as a matter of fact) because of extreme gender segregation. The issue is skirted.
    There will be no forthcoming rape statistics for the KSA because those kinds of statistics simply don't exist.

    Aussie Lady I hear you loud and clear and I absolutely understand where you are coming from. You will hear no criticism from me.

    ReplyDelete
  74. This whole Comment Section is HILARIOUSLY SAD -- only a handful presented VALID points and you know who you are ;-) As of now, Rafay's ideas are deemed by *moi* as most realistic, accompanied by the likes of Hamdah and AMW, among a few others.

    As for the "informed" commentators, Googling and mentioning whatever Fox news has to say about "Muslims", your arguments are very weak and nothing new.

    Plus... I suspect a few of you are being complete lamers, posing under different i.d. names to support "each other's" point of view.

    Old commenting trick, usually done by the desperate ones trying to win the argument. Doesn't work but it's provides a good laugh once found out.

    (Sorry to sound so negative but many of these anti-Islamic comments have made my head spin by the sheer stupidity and ignorance.)

    ReplyDelete
  75. Thank you to all the commenters. It is clear that when it comes to religion, people have very strong convictions and passion. I appreciate you all keeping it civil and interesting.

    I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate in the discussion. I have been experiencing severe internet problems - it's been down more than it's been up. So my priority is to read your comments and get them posted.
    I had to rewrite this little comment three times just to get it posted!

    ReplyDelete
  76. @ Hamdam, my example is exactly related to what you say as that doesnt seem to be happening very frequently in the muslim world. Women are allowed to perish.

    Reading Islam as you say is not enough, I guess for a person to understand something, they need to go in depth in the subject. But most Muslims do not even speak Arabic but they can drone on and on about the Quran without even knowing the translations.

    You tell us not to judge/stereotype/pick on Muslims ? Alright I wont, since you say there are loads of other countries where cases happen, very negative ones too. Then why is it that time and again, continuously, something or the other disrupts the peace in the muslim world ? It is either against your women, or against your neighbours, or against other liberal country. Why is it that no other religion displays such a lack of regard for rules, liberty and life? Why is that whenever there is a disruption in civil social life, it involves an act from a group of muslims (mostly) ? Why is it that harmless things such as cartoons or children's dolls are objected upon by Muslims? Why is it that the no.1 terrorist activities are mostly Muslim based ?

    I can go on asking questions. You may say, that the muslims who commit these atrocities are misguided or whatever and are not true muslims, but I fail to understand how does, say 80 percent of the most largest dominating religion go wrong? I can understand 2 people going wrong in a group of 10, but 8 out of 10...thats something to think about. And nope, do not say the media exagerrates or we do not know the truth or we do not understand. We very well do since we regular people have been taught to keep an open mind and embrace things that we regularly will not and apparently I am not from the west too.

    Thats why we pick on you.

    @ Rafay, honour killing by stoning known as "Rajm" are mentioned very well in the Hadiths, funny you being a Muslim dont even know !

    Regards

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  77. Do you know every single detail about your religion, Maleeka?

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  78. Maleeka- your questions are biased so I am not gonna answer them. If you want to know the truth search for it and you will find it.

    You are anti-Islam and that is clear. Now, I understand why you hate Muslims and especially Saudis.


    Pity on you !

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  79. @Rafay

    You said: "...the 72 virgin story is myth manufactured by the civilized world to explain why an educated man would blow himself up."

    I have often heard that the 72 virgins in paradise is a myth. I'm not Muslim, and neither am I well-versed on Islam to either confirm or refute this claim. An article on WikiIslam does say that the virgins in paradise are mentioned in the Qur'an (although the number is not specified) and the specific number of 72 is mentioned in the hadith. I chose to refer to this article, because it has a complete list of references along with a list of related articles and videos on the subject.

    That is not to say that the promise of virgins is the only impetus for suicide bombers. Their reasons could range from despair to religious fervor.

    My problem with suicide bombers, whatever their reasons are, is they think nothing of taking innocent lives. I think it is selfish and causes nothing but sorrow.

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  80. G'Day Susie

    Rafay... Who is this leader of the civilized world you like to refer to, the one that is giving you the stats...

    Cheers Aussie Lady

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  81. @ Hamdah

    I do not really need pity, I live a free independent life where I make my own decisions, dress as I want, eat what I want, get to pursue whatever interests me ranging from art to music to fashion to digital artistry. Its a happy satisfactory life, no chains of slavery around me disguised as religious prerequisites.

    And thats convenient, not answering my questions because I am biased? Or is it because there are no answers? Try me or at least point me to the direction where I can search, and that applies not to me but to all the people who are looking for answers about this violence hiding under curtains of peace. Just accusing me of being a Muslim hater does not entail you to be the victorious.

    I do not mean to offend you but since we were debating, about an issue here, I was curious to know.

    And I do not hate muslims, infact my BFF is a muslim girl, and she is one of the most compassionate, brave and intriguing human beings I have ever come across in my life. But what I hate is the subjugation of women under religious pretenses and the very fact that women tend to embrace it. You seem to think you are better than me or any other non muslim women for that matter, and that holier than thou attitude irks me.

    Maybe Islam is better than any other religion in the world, but the way you seem to make your case is not doing very good for its impression.

    @ Anon

    My religion can be traced back to the neolithic era, it is the first organized spiritual culture that originated in civilization, so no I probably do not know even 1 percent of it. :)

    But I posed the question to Rafay, as Quranic knowledge takes priority in Islam to be called a proper Muslim isnt it ? Please correct me if I am wrong.

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  82. Rafay, I love how you use the same weak arguments over repeatedly and spit out generalized statistics about why segregation between sexes should exist. And you think that rapes and molestations DON'T occur in countries where there is gender segregation???

    It is absolute NONSENSE to think that men will go on rape rampages once mixing of the sexes occurs, just like it's nonsense to believe that women can't be good judges when it comes to befriending men.

    I spent almost 6 months traveling BY MYSELF in different Middle Eastern countries and guess what? There were times where I was nearly molested or else bothered by men who realized I was traveling alone. I had to walk around with my guard up constantly. I noticed I was bothered less when I wore abaya b/c everyone assumed I looked Arab with my dark looks, but when I wore western clothing there was a feeling I felt from others of "she's Western, she's alone, she must be looking for a man or a husband."

    But just like I don't walk down a dangerous neighborhood at night by myself in any American city, I was careful in who I allowed around me while in the Middle East. It's called common sense, and nothing to do with "women have to be protected from lecherous men and men have to be protected from lustful women."

    Segregation of ANY KIND will ALWAYS lead to one group being given the short end of the stick.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Looks like Sheikh Ahmed Al-Ghamidi recent comments that cultural extremism is practice in the name of Islam are just tip of the icy glacier.I think within time more reformers may rose up to influence Saudi Society in practicing TRUE Islamic values.Compliments from Pay Per Click Services

    ReplyDelete
  84. You can not have zero rape, zero pollution etc but you can still minimize them. My argument is that MOST rapes occur due to gender mixing; some 70% according to the US stats. This implies that if gender mixing is avoided, some 50% to 70% rapes wont occur. SO to minimize rape you HAVE to minimize gender mixing. I hope you ladies understand what im saying!!!

    @Sandy
    well give me another option?
    logic is all good for arguing but has little to no use in applied sciences. if a theory cannot make accurate predictions, then practically it's useless. Unless you can predict when and where the next earthquake will occur, then your theory is just a theory.

    @anonymous
    US proclaims itself to be the leader of the civilized world. ive have used stats from the US for this discussion

    @verumi
    wikislam is an anti-islam site, whose purpose is to bring people out of islam.
    There are fabricated hadtih like there are so many fabrications in the current versions of bible and talumud. In order to keep islam free from innovations, muslims scholars devised a strategy of distinguishing between true word of the prophet and fabricated narrations. The hadith are rated as authentic, good, weak, fabricated and others. it's a whole science to determine which hadith is authentic and which ones are not. there are many fabricated hadith going around. This hadith that wikiislam refer to is rated by most scholars as weak and by others as fabricated because the chain or narrators is broken.
    Now let's focus on gender mixing shall we.

    @eastern
    no plz dont love my arguments. prove them wrong! prove that over 70% rapes inside the US are not caused by rapists known to the woman. btw i think you should also walk through the streets of brooklyn at night (after 9) for a few months and share your experiences here.

    Women should be able to drive, they should have women driven taxis and buses for women with separate lanes for them. women should be able to swim, gym, have fun but all that can be done separate from men. give me one good reason to mix with men. or are you implying women NEED men to do all those things, that they are incapable of doing those things without men.

    @maeelka
    yes muslims should learn arabic.

    honor killing is different from hadd punishments so stop making a fool of yourself. in fact let me just describe the hadd punishment for adultery which is often confused with 'honor killing'.
    Person A accuses woman B and man C of having sexual relations outside of the framework of marriage. If B and C deny the accusation, case goes to the shariah court.
    Now person A will have to produce 4 male eye-witnesses or 2 female witness for every male witness to testify in front of the judge. They must individually testify that "i saw C entering B" or something to that effect. no other statement is acceptable.
    Then the judge will question the witnesses separately about the details of the event.

    if the details among the witnesses dont match, A is punished for slandering (80 lashes) and all witnesses are punished for false testimony (100 lashes) and they are black listed forever.

    if A cannot produce the required witnesses in court he is punished for slandering (80 lashes)

    if all the eye witness accounts match OR B and C confess in an open court that they have had intercourse outside of marriage then
    1) the one who is unmarried (B, C or both) receives 100 lashes
    2) the one who is married (B, C or both) must be stoned to death.

    Only a qazi (muslim judge) or muslim ruler can sanction punishments.

    for rape the woman doesnt have to produce any witnesses as circumstantial evidence is taken into account.

    sorry but i dont find any honor killing anywhere in Islam. those who do such things should be executed for murder. They may also be convicted of apostasy (going against the shariah, the law of the islamic state).

    p.s. dont quote me on the number of lashes but i hope you realize how difficult it is in islam to convict anybody of adultery. again let's stick to the topic

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  85. @Wendy
    sorry dear i missed that part. yes you are correct that the sickness of homosexuality has overtaken the muslims. All homos and rapists are to be executed. This also why islam emphasizes distinguishing the sexes, through clothes, beards, hair styles, perfumes etc.
    again let's focus on the topic in the original post.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Holy canoly, there's a lot of Info I hadn't heard about. I heard about the cleavage thing, which is ridiculous in my opinion, but haven't heard about the sun tan issue.
    I can only shake my head.

    I hadn't heard about Al-Ghamdi either. Wish there were more men like him!

    I think Kuwait at least has a religious police too, but I'm not a 100% sure. They do arrest people kissing in cars when they are not married (one example I read about in the newspaper when we lived there).
    They also arrested a woman carrying Tarot cards,....

    I like your entry words for this article.
    Exactly the way I see things :)

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  87. Maleeka, I can't direct you to know Islam better because you don't want to.

    Your questions' answers are scattered in Google, just google your questions!

    I want to tell you something, You are not discussing rare acts by Muslims, you are claiming that Islam is a violent religion. Thus, sorry I cannot discuss with you anything.

    In the U.S, crime rates are SO high, even inside the church. Can I use that to say that Christianity is a violent religion. Of course, NO!

    So, Do not over-generalize so you will be able to see the truth.

    Maleeka, you were not asking me, you were/are judging me and Islam and that is not Debating at all !


    If anyone would want to know the truth they can find it anywhere. Use your brain and logic not what you see or hear on the mainstream media.

    ReplyDelete
  88. G'day Susie

    Rafay,

    I read the Jordan Times,

    Reports of honour killings are published there at least once a month, sometimes more.

    After the killing the murderers hand themselves over to the police and are sentenced to jail for about two or three months.

    It is usually the father,brother or uncles that save the family's honour in this way.

    And quite often there is no proof of misconduct, village gossip will do.

    Cheers Aussie Lady

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  89. Rafay--not sure about your US stats, but plausible if it is 70% of those who are raped are raped by someone they know. Stranger rape is less common.
    Rape stats from anywhere are notoriously difficult to obtain with any accuracy. Victims underreport, activists overreport.
    I disagree though that gender mixing is the problem. It remains to be proven. Most time gender mixing is banal...so banal we don't even think about it.

    I agree with your idea the honour killings and hudu crimes are distinct. Many times honour killings are never brought to court, remaining extra-judicial in all senses.

    Aussie Lady--the Jordanian monarchy has been trying for decades to remove the special light sentencing of honour crimes and make them a simple murder with the attendant penalties. They haven't been able to get it past parliament--yet.
    Without change to mindsets, which they are also working on, families will continue to have one member have the honour of preserving family honour by serving whatever sentence. If the sentencing is too harsh then they get a minor to do it, and serve the lesser sentence. Changing patriarchal tribal mindsets of anyone who holds them is the key.

    I used to read the Nice Matin, it was full of crimes passionnels by Corsicans usually. The sentencing was much lighter for "crimes of passion" and still is in many Western countries, whether formally in legislation or informally in "mitigating factors".

    ReplyDelete
  90. Anonymous Rafay said...

    @Wendy
    sorry dear i missed that part. yes you are correct that the sickness of homosexuality has overtaken the muslims. All homos and rapists are to be executed. This also why islam emphasizes distinguishing the sexes, through clothes, beards, hair styles, perfumes etc.
    again let's focus on the topic in the original post.

    @Rafay
    Re your post above. I have watched and spoken with gay men in KSA who wear make-up, tight jeans, and flounce down the street with their boyfriends holding hands (yes men can hold hands, women can hold hands but never a man and woman) and ones who could possibly pass for a muttawa. It appears to be accepted with a wink, wink and it is soooo hypocritical.

    ReplyDelete
  91. the stats i was using are from
    http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

    which lists is references as
    U.S. Department of Justice. 2005 National Crime Victimization Study. 2005.
    U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Statistics. 1997 Sex Offenses and Offenders Study. 1997.
    U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Statistics. 1998 Alcohol and Crime Study. 1998.
    2002 Recidivism of Prisoners Released in 1994 Study. 2002.

    so these are official US figures not from any activists.

    one thing is certain. Most rapes are from male acquaintances and that is enough evidence (for those who ask for it) to avoid gender mixing. Moreover, women do not need men to do the things they want to do. I dont see any solid benefit of gender mixing for women.

    additional problem with gender mixing include (but not limited to)
    1. flirting, teasing, provocative clothing and eventually adultery and pregnancies outside of marriage
    2. breakup of existing marriages due to misunderstandings
    3. men using women and women using men and other games eventually hating each other.
    4. increased permissiveness, leading to homosexuality and incest

    These things have become accepted in the civilized world so civilized people dont find such things troubling. In fact they are proud of their freedom that allows a man to have children with his grandmother.

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20100430/tod-granny-72-having-a-baby-with-her-gra-870a197.html

    Such sickness and anything that opens door to such sickness is not tolerated in islam and is unacceptable to muslims.

    ReplyDelete
  92. @Rafay
    “My argument is that MOST rapes occur due to gender mixing; some 70% according to the US stats. This implies that if gender mixing is avoided, some 50% to 70% rapes wont occur.

    Most rapes are from male acquaintances and that is enough evidence (for those who ask for it) to avoid gender mixing. Moreover, women do not need men to do the things they want to do. I dont see any solid benefit of gender mixing for women.

    additional problem with gender mixing include (but not limited to)
    1. flirting, teasing, provocative clothing and eventually adultery and pregnancies outside of marriage
    2. breakup of existing marriages due to misunderstandings
    3. men using women and women using men and other games eventually hating each other.
    4. increased permissiveness, leading to homosexuality and incest”

    Well let me, most of the rapes that happen in Yemen are perpetuated by the husband. Child brides of 7, 8, 10 years old married off to men 20 or 30 years their senior. A few are now dead by being ripped apart by their “loving husbands”….Definitely true on it being from a male acquaintance. Incest is never spoken about except by a courageous few- but it does happen in Middle Eastern countries

    The breakup of existing marriages due to misunderstandings…if 1 in 2 marriages in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc never survives- what would you reason is the cause.

    The men using women, is a daily affair in Middle Eastern country. Women using their daughters as pawns, men selling their daughters as chattel. No mixing involved, believe me.

    Homosexuality, well I saw more homosexual tendencies among men in the Middle East than in the US, and I live in NY.

    With the amount of porn that is available on satellite TVs in some Middle Eastern countries, with prostitutes in abaya and niqab, one should really be careful of throwing stones in glass houses.

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  93. also Rafay to answer:
    "All these 'imaginations' and 'stories' about women suffering in saudi is worrying me. i would like to ask Suzie. she seems to have disappeared lol!
    Im sure youve met many saudi women by now. if you dont mind, id like to know (an estimate)
    1) the total number of women you have met/seen
    2) the number of women who had suffered domestic violence
    3) the number of women you have seen being beaten by police
    4) the number of women suffering from mal-nutrition
    5) the number of women that werent allowed to finish grade 10.
    6) the number of women who showed symptoms of depression.
    7) the number of women who had been raped.
    8) the number of women who
    wanted to work in a women-only place but weren't allowed to.
    9) the number of women who were lashed or stoned to death. how many were actually innocent?"

    Let’s see in Yemen:
    I belong by marriage to a tribe that has approximate hundred women; surrounded by three other tribes…so I put the count at about 250 over a period of more than 25 years.
    Number of women in that group that suffered domestic violence, I’d say ¾ of them
    Only saw one woman beaten by a policeman- he was a cop and her husband.
    Women suffering from mal-nutrition- I would say more than 70 percent of them are mineral and vitamin deficient- witnessed by their hair, teeth, bone, and menses
    Not allowed to finish to the 10th grade…90 percent of them were taken out of school or never walked into a class room- and only 3 I know personally were home tutored.
    The number of women showing depression…over the age of ten 100 percent of them showed classic symptoms of depression.
    Of that group of women I know of ten women who were raped.
    All the women were not allowed to work outside their home.
    No stoning or lashing…but dead by rape two.

    In Jordan:
    About 100 women in the span of my life and my infrequent visits.
    About 20 women were abused- the effects were visual
    Non beaten by police
    None suffering mal nutrition
    About half- the older ones never learned to read or write
    Depression about ¾ of them
    Only two women I know work outside the home.
    One by reference of an honor killing

    Never been to Saudi Arabia.

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  94. Well, I've seen a lot of the above mentioned "sickness" in Muslim societies and some of it hidden behind the cloak of the religion.
    I understand that you will never see things differently so have a happy life and I hope all in your family and life have a nice time also because what is life if we can't enjoy it.

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  95. Yesterday I watched "10 Most Shocking Sex Scandals" on E Channel. All 10 cases were done by popular politicians and influential people including president of the United States. Not only that but some of those people were standing for every single act that promotes morality !

    I wonder, if people who are intellectuals, educated and under-the-spot are acting like that? Is is suitable to promote American values to the world.

    I lived in the U.S and on a daily basis I will see and hear shocking stories. One of them is our neighbor who killed his wife and buried her in their back yard !!!!

    Rapes, homosexuality, drug abuse, harassment, children abuse !

    Invading other countries, supporting Israel, oppressing innocents, killing millions of innocent people !

    Interfering into other countries' internal business, human trafficking, women slavery , prostitution!


    All the above are SOOOO HIGH in the United States.

    So, sorry Americans we want to go back to our religion to solve our problems. Solve your problems first, it is your priority!


    I do not trust western ways of freedom.

    Freedom = responsibility and that is the concept of freedom in Islam.


    I know that we have problems in Saudi Arabia and many other Arab and Muslim countries and those problem are because of the western globalization and imperialism. When people follow Islam correctly they will never have problem or even make problems.


    Please solve your own problems and let us talk about our own problems!

    WE ARE 100% Saudis. We are the only ones responsible for the future of our country.

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  96. @Hamdah
    "I know that we have problems in Saudi Arabia and many other Arab and Muslim countries and those problem are because of the western globalization and imperialism. When people follow Islam correctly they will never have problem or even make problems.


    Please solve your own problems and let us talk about our own problems!

    WE ARE 100% Saudis. We are the only ones responsible for the future of our country. "

    In one stroke you blamed both non-muslims and muslims for the current state of affairs. On the one hand you use the 'woe is us because you guys exist' and on the other you state if the practice was done correctly by Muslims, we wouldn't have any problems. So which one is it- them or us?

    With responsibility comes accountability. Shining flares on the other pasture doesn't make the second one any greener.

    Account for the fact that tribal practices mixed in with our religion is what shackles our religion. Account for the thousand and one misguided opinions of people who wanna be scholars steering people away from the Path. And what they bring to the table is more tribalism. Then be responsible enough to see that Allah will replace us, if we don't get our act together.

    Being 100% Saudi will not help you any more than saying 'ana Kuwaiti' for example,- meaningless when you yard has yet to be cleaned,organized, and functioning according to the 'proper' rules of Islam. When you stop 'burying females in the sand', and stop sticking your heads in the sand like ostriches you'll find vultures waiting patiently- all because your talk of responsibility centers on attacking outsiders with a see what they do to us- and no inner action plan. Listen to those inside Saudi and you will hear their voices and most will not be about imperialism and globalization.

    Yes it IS your responsibility to stand up and look for solutions in your country. When you have a plan let us know.
    I'd be all ears.

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  97. Inal- So which one is it- them or us?

    Both, as simple as that !

    I am not blabbering about change and development, I am doing my own responsibility by studying and participating in the society. I am a blogger and I tell my opinions frankly and thousands would be pleased by them and support me. I do not want to brag about what I did or will do because it is not me who do these sort of things.

    I am very close to a lot of youth in my country and especially women. I understand their needs as well as mine and I talk about the most important to the least not the opposite.

    I have my own plans and one day I will be a leading figure in Saudi society inshallah.

    By the way, I will bring change according to Islam not the Americanized kind of Islam !

    I do not believe in Islam mixed in the blender with other non-Muslim values ! Excuse me !


    AGAIN, I am 100% Saudi and I am responsible for my country's future partially.

    Yet, I agree that there are problems, but we are legible to solve them not outsiders. Please solve your own problems first. Your own people need you more than we do. Actually, we don't !

    Saudi Arabia's population 60% under 25- so we have energy to change. The serious problem is in your aging populations. Go fix your problems as soon as you can!

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  98. Hamdah
    I am so glad you can define who my people are. I certainly know your Saudi.

    No you don't blather about change and development; and I'm not speaking of Americanized Islam either.

    Since both sides are equally to blame, then bear your part in it. I neither export Islam, nor imperialism, or globalization as concepts. Indeed we are all entitled to our right to blather and wax poetic.

    But for someone as well studied as you I was hoping to hear of the better options that should exist as 100% Saudis that you are.

    You haven't; so I guess I will have to wait for the next Saudi- maybe not a 100% Saudi that has some concrete options for his people- one person at a time.

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  99. I enjoy reading your blog and getting your imput into Islam. I still have questions but only about American Muslims. I wonder why we don't hear about them decrying the violence done in Islams name here. Or is it our media who is to blame?

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  100. Abdullah al HuwlandeeMay 18, 2010, 9:39:00 AM

    Hi there and thanks for your blog.

    I'm a white, Dutch Muslim convert. Here's my two cents worth, lol. Firstly, I do understand why you view things in Saudi Arabia the way you express them. I can see things from more than one angle.. however, this is what I have to say:

    You talk about the fact that there are "religious" police in Saudi Arabia, and explain that there must be compulsion in Islam as there are police who enforce the laws there (which obviously are different to your values).... however, in my opinion, the western concept of "religion" is a false one, Islam is a "way of life" and all ways of life need police and laws... except if one is an anarchist. Don't they have police to enforce YOUR American laws of YOUR American way of life?

    The thing is... as a Western Muslim convert, I realise that my own Islamic laws remain constant... you know where you are at with them... yet in the West, all laws are in constant flux... it's like starting a football match and your opponent changes the rules half way through in THEIR favour... that's what happens on many fronts, including (as a business man myself) the economy and tax laws! immigration rules etc... there are even laws in the making now to ban Muslim dress, ban minarets... and even calls to ban the Quran by people who have probably never bothered to study it... but just want dark skinned people out of Europe and wish to avoid being labled racists amongst others.

    Bye!

    Abdullah al Huwlandee

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  101. @ Abdullah al Huwlandee

    I am happy with your strong belief in your faith. I do, however, feel that if your faith is as strong as you say and your religion a way of life then you should not require a policeman to keep you in line. You should be able to do it on your own. To me you make it sound that your mental and emotional stability depends on someone or something always having control over you so you absolutely don't have to think things out for yourself.

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  102. Inal, sorry but I didn't understand what you want from me?

    Can you write it again please clearly, I might help?

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  103. Rafay--thank you for providing the source of your stats. You did of course use reliable ones. I think we are in agreement on the stats but maybe not on the cause of them. :)

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  104. There is no compulsion in the religion of Islam. The Islam that Saudi Arabia practices IS NOT the Islam that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) practiced. I have no idea where the Saudis got off track, but even the Qur'an says that you cannot force religion on someone. It says only Allah can change your heart, not a person. Prophet Muhammad would be ashamed of the so-called Islam that is in Saudi now. Why are they so afraid of women? We ARE NOT responsible for the actions of men. I caould see a naked man walking down the street, and how I react to him is up to ME! They do not want to take responsibility for their actions, so it is easier to blame someone else, especially a woman. This is why I will never go to Hajj unless things change over there. IT is a shame, and the United States should not have any association with them until they change their laws about women. Saudi is one of the biggest violators of human rights in the world, so why do we continue to be their friend? I don't get it..oh wait, yes I do...oil.

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  105. Awww! That picture of the women with the king made me smile... My friend's Mother is in it. What a rebel :)

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